Joey: 0:14

Welcome back to another episode of I'm Not Gay you Are. Today we have Tom here to talk to us about genetics and listen to his journey and his story hello, hello.

Tom: 0:25

How's everybody doing?

Joey: 0:26

I'm really excited to share the wealth of knowledge that you bring on like genetics and talk to you about, like nature versus nurture, like being gay your experience again like tom is a good friend of mine through the hospitality industry and like we connect on like a really great level, I feel like we just get each other. Oh, we absolutely do yeah, and like I thought you were a fire sign and, as you were gonna hear, he's not a fire sign but you're gonna think he's a lot of mystery a lot of mystery, yeah, um, let's get into it yeah, sounds great.

Joey: 0:54

I can't wait to get into it I'm a fan of nature versus nurture, okay, and I want to talk to you about your early years, like when did you know you were gay? Um, you know like, talk to me about, like your you know relationships when you were younger, schooling and and like how being gay like affected your childhood.

Tom: 1:15

Yeah, I mean I was always like really flamboyant as a kid. Like I think it was pretty obvious that I was gay. Like I think that like I mean everyone in like middle school told me that I was gay before I really even connected those dots. I just thought I was really into my best friend did anything ever happen oh god, no, he was straight um like I remember, like telling him that I had a giant crush on him, like on my trampoline in like seventh grade in the summer, um, and he was like I don't feel the same and I was like like it's crazy, are you sure?

Joey: 1:46

You're like. What do you mean? You're using my trampoline. We're so good together, like look at the way we bounce together. Literally.

Tom: 1:53

And so like I think everyone kind of knew that I was kind of gay and it was like because I like had like this best friend that I was super into, so yeah, so it wasn't really like a surprise for anyone. Like I didn't really have like a big coming out moment in high school. Um, I will say, in grade 10 I was, I had like this crush on another one of my guy friends. His name is michael and like he was an art kid does he know?

Joey: 2:14

pardon, does he know or did he know?

Tom: 2:17

because what's if he listens to the pod? We're still. Oh sorry, does he know? Does he know that he were talking about this or?

Joey: 2:22

does he? Did he know that you had a crush on him?

Tom: 2:24

Oh yeah, oh wait till you. Oh, you're going to hear the story.

Joey: 2:26

Okay okay.

Tom: 2:27

So I had like a little bit of a crush on him, but it wasn't anything crazy. But he was an arts kid so he like invited me to like one of his like theater parties and we ended up getting like really, really, we were so cool at a drama party and our friend like our mutual friend was like you guys should make out and I instantly was like no, because I know what that means.

Tom: 2:50

I was like uh michael grabbed me and made out with me okay, which obviously I kissed him back, yeah, um, and then he kind of like stopped kissing me and like realizing like what he did and like freaked out and had the most dramatic reaction and ran into traffic, um was he not sober?

Joey: 3:07

no, he wasn't. He was like blackout wasted.

Tom: 3:09

He was like he was just started crying and it was the most embarrassing thing, ever yeah um, like I'm not embarrassed about it now, but like, obviously the time I was like devastated, like oh, was that like your first, like public gay kiss, yes, okay um, and having someone try and run into traffic afterwards was like, hey, it wasn't that bad you're like this is gonna cause trauma for me. I'm gonna have to talk to someone about this um but it was, yeah, it was just really funny.

Tom: 3:33

So I remember like walking into school the next or like the following monday and like not thinking anything about it because this was like right at the dawn of facebook and I just remember like walking into like my last class of the day and this girl's standing on her desk and like, pointing and going, you kissed a boy and I was like yeah, what the fuck about it? And so like when I had that reaction, I don't think people like we're kind of like, oh yeah, like he's clearly gay, like we all clearly kind of knew about it, like it's not really anything thing to make fun of at this point, like right, he, he doesn't give a shit, so why does anybody else give a shit? Yeah, see for me, like I would have cried. I wasn't that kid. I had a lot of walls up when I was a little one. I was very defensive. I was that punk kid who didn't want. I was. I thought I was too cool for everybody. I didn't let anyone tell me what to do.

Tom: 4:19

Good for you I did not march anyone else's beat to their own drum. I went by my own, nice yeah I uh, I did not I to anyone else's beat to their own drum.

Joey: 4:26

I went by my own. Nice, yeah, I did not. I was like where's the marching band and how do I fit in?

Tom: 4:32

Oh my God, I was like the antithesis of that. I think it's just because I'm such a hater at heart, I'm not a follower.

Joey: 4:38

I think it's safety response.

Tom: 4:40

Oh, of course, it's almost like a trauma response, you know, yeah it's like these walls are up for a reason. I'm protecting myself and I look like I'm on the like but normally not hurting are actually the ones that care the most. Yeah, you know like. Yeah, speaking from personal experience, like put it, and making, making making it seem as if you don't care about anything means that you care too much about everything everything speaking of what's what's your, what's your sign?

Joey: 5:04

I'm a libra. Okay, it's not a water sign.

Tom: 5:08

No, it's not a water sign it's a I'm a libra sun, a libra rising and a pisces moon so there is some water in there there is some water in there that's up. That's up, a little bit of fire a lot of no fire, no, no fire, no. I actually have zero fire signs in my chart. What's a Libra?

Joey: 5:28

Air. Okay, this makes sense. It's aligning.

Tom: 5:30

I actually have zero fire signs in my chart, though it's kind of crazy. Which is crazy? I?

Joey: 5:34

know, I expected you to be like I'm an Aries, mm-hmm, a little stubborn. Well, sister signs. Well, I'm an aries. I know that's why I made the gesture. Okay, I'm like yeah, confident as a kid.

Tom: 5:48

Then, like me on the outside which is crazy because like, where'd that come from? Yeah, it wasn't. It was confident.

Joey: 5:52

I was just like, very like comfortable, like you knew who you were like you were like so you're in high school at this point, like when did you know you were gay? I?

Tom: 6:01

mean making out with a boy at the party was and liking it unfortunately solidified some things confirmed it.

Joey: 6:06

Yeah, for sure. How old were you at that point?

Tom: 6:08

I think I was 15 yeah, oh, sorry you mentioned that. Yeah, yeah, I think I was.

Joey: 6:11

I was in grade 10, so and then what did it look like moving forward for you, going back to school, and, like you know, obviously you said that. Like that girl stood up and said that to you, so, like, did you have any relationships in high school?

Tom: 6:20

no, there was like there was one gay kid in my high school and like it was you. No, no, sorry there was another gay kid in my high school and I just like we didn't.

Joey: 6:31

We just had nothing in common like it was, whereas the whole school thought you two had to be together because you're the only, no, it was like oil and water, like we couldn't be near each.

Tom: 6:38

It was just like he was very like preppy and into again. He was just the antithesis of me just not. Yeah, not your type no, like, I got my first tattoo when I was like 14 in high school, so I was like what was that kid, um, it was a raven on my ribs.

Tom: 6:52

Yeah, I'm, I am one. My best friend, um, got a tattoo from this guy in a basement on her ribs and I was like that's so cool, I want one. So I got this giant raven on my ribs and it's horrible and I've had to blast it over like twice to try and fix it.

Joey: 7:05

Oh, are you lasering?

Tom: 7:07

it. No, I'm like going over it with like darker ink to try and like make it look nicer. I gave up on it. Now there's so many that I just whatever they all kind of they all blend together, I mean, they look great, thank you thank you.

Tom: 7:25

I feel like I have a very unique tattoo style, yeah, but I like it works for you. It looks good. I just like it because I never see anyone with tattoos similar to mine. Sometimes I see people take a gray arm and I'm like, oh wow, that must suck a gray arm you don't even see someone with a sleeve and it just all looks gray oh, yeah, because you can't decipher any actual things on it.

Joey: 7:38

You're right, what it is right? Yeah, I don't like that.

Tom: 7:40

It's uh, I think it's a sign of bad artwork.

Joey: 7:42

Personally yeah, well, it's, it's, it's kind of blended right. So there's no like you can't determine what is actually on and included in the sleeve, because it becomes one piece of art to me, it just screams.

Tom: 7:56

I just went into a tattoo shop and said I wanted a sleeve to look tough yeah, it's more of an aesthetic than like an art.

Joey: 8:03

When was your first boyfriend my?

Tom: 8:06

first boyfriend was just out of high school. Okay, I had an online boyfriend.

Joey: 8:11

Oh, you've told me about this.

Tom: 8:12

Yeah, he's, uh. So I dated this loser who just had too much money coming out of high school and I moved to New York for a little bit. I was like I took a year off school to go to new york and it was but he was your pen pal first right oh yes, yeah, so like literally I this is so 2013.

Joey: 8:32

I like fully had a tumblr boyfriend this is giving like your punk emo phase, like like peak of it, yeah also like, by the way, tumblr.

Tom: 8:40

This time was like hot yeah, it was the place to be on the internet you know, know, taylor Swift still uses Tumblr. Oh, no little. This is. This is the time that she was like having secret sessions with people.

Joey: 8:49

This is when.

Tom: 8:49

Taylor was into Tumblr and I fully had a Tumblr boyfriend, um, and that was my first boyfriend and I met him and he turned out to be a crazy person.

Joey: 8:58

Well, hey, well, hey, it happens you know, while you live, you learn and then you deactivate tumblr literally blocked. So then you, you were living where?

Tom: 9:11

in edmonton I was in edmonton and I went back to the university of alberta and I finished my degree there okay and what was your degree? Again, I took a bachelor's of science with a specialization in molecular genetics so you're smart, smart I mean, I don't like to toot my own horn.

Joey: 9:27

I just I just really enjoyed what I got to do.

Tom: 9:29

Okay, I love that it was a very intense program and I I really enjoyed all the things that I got to do. I got a lot of really cool opportunities a lot of really cool learning experiences. I got to do my own research, a lot of things that I definitely would not have been able to do just with a regular bachelor's degree yeah, yeah, and you're interested in it which is like you know, helps obviously Like what you're learning is like something you're interested in, passionate about. Totally.

Joey: 9:53

Perfect.

Tom: 9:53

And I was very passionate about it, still am.

Joey: 9:56

The biggest question, I guess, in like queer history that I always get asked is like nature versus nurture and like what are your thoughts around that is like nature versus nurture and and like what are your thoughts around that? And then, obviously you having like this educational background in genetics, I'm curious to know what your scientific brain is telling us um, versus just my queer brain.

Tom: 10:17

being like I like boys I have so many opinions about this, truthfullyfully. So, for example, the whole nature versus nature argument, I think, is great because unfortunately both are true. There's no such thing as nature or nurture in entirety, and I think a really good example of this is twin studies. They'll use twin studies to determine a lot of behavioral things, because they can actually take a look at the genetics being similar or identical. And you know, with a scientific process you want to eliminate all of the control variables as possible. So, specifically with twin studies, what you can do is there's one.

Tom: 10:59

Nordic country that like has like a really crazy record of all of their twins that they put up for adoption and like where they went and what they did is they? They tracked people like over history and they they determined like behavioral traits between them. Okay, so for example, schizophrenia was a really good example. When they were looking at the genetic components behind schizophrenia, they used twin studies and they determined like like if. For example, if one twin had schizophrenia, they would use a twin study to determine if the other twin also had schizophrenia.

Tom: 11:29

So they could determine some kind of correlation, not like causation, but at least correlation. Like you know, if one twin develops this disorder, will the other, because their genetics are the same, and if it is a completely genetic component to schizophrenia, then the other twin should also have schizophrenia. And what they ended up finding is sometimes it happens, sometimes it doesn't. And when they dug a little deeper they found out that people that develop schizophrenia was a result of what they called a psychotic break. So they were genetically predispositioned to have schizophrenia, but they waited for a really stressful moment in their life for it to happen to them right so let's say someone is genetically they have like all the genetic factors that would.

Tom: 12:10

That would give them schizophrenia. Um, if they are a drug addict and their mom dies and they're super stressed out, they could have the psychotic break which causes them to have triggers that yeah.

Tom: 12:21

So if they, if they had a twin and they had a very, they had the exact same genome and one of them went through a stressful life event and one of them didn't, that could heavily influence something like schizophrenia. Um, same with being queer. Um, because queerness itself is, is a behavioral trait that us, as biologists, have tried to understand. And it's very difficult because there's this topic in genetics called fitness, which is the ability for someone or anything to pass off its genetic material down, essentially having offspring, because if you have a certain trait that makes you more successful to stay alive or to mate, that will increase your fitness.

Tom: 13:02

And queerness in itself is kind of counterintuitive to fitness because you know, as queer people, we don't procreate the way that we're supposed to right and biology doesn't want us well, we can't yeah yeah, well, I mean we could, but, like I mean, depends how much dialysis you got, you know, yeah, I mean, which also might not work, wait.

Joey: 13:23

Yeah, true, no, but wait, we obviously can't procreate in the same way like male and female can, right, obviously like we're not designed to hold a baby. As much as I would love to carry a child.

Tom: 13:37

I know you look so cute pregnant, but it raises a really important question, which is why, if there is a genetic component to queerness, if it is evolutionary disadvantage a disadvantage, why is it still around? Because something is preventing it from dying off, Something is making it sustain in populations. Because we're still around. We see evidence of this. So, something is making it that those genetic factors are not being selected against entirely. They can be selected against, for sure, but something is not making sure that they're not being selected against entirely.

Joey: 14:14

Right.

Tom: 14:15

So it's raised. Some questions with biologists have led to like oh like, just having queer people in your immediate family increase your overall fitness, because we are social creatures, we're not individuals. So maybe having a gay sibling could massively increase your fitness because it would have you could have a male around to support the child. You know, queer men often take on like more feminine roles. When we look at how we are viewed by society, we do more quote unquote feminine things and those actually might provide a evolutionary fitness for species.

Tom: 14:50

So, that kind of correlates into how there definitely is a nature side of genetics and being queer, because it definitely implies that there is a biological component, that something is being selected on.

Joey: 15:04

That makes sense. So what I'm hearing is that potentially somewhere in my life before now I've been like not got through a stressful event or something, but like something has happened to trigger me to feel like I want to be queer maybe you know.

Tom: 15:29

I mean, I don't think that was the best example because the psychotic break is very specific to schizophrenia and I don't think that I want to call.

Joey: 15:36

I want, I want to have a gay psychotic break.

Tom: 15:38

I mean, isn't that just like when we're 14 in the target underwear aisle? Yeah I think that's actually like the psychotic break, the gay version of a psychotic break, literally like watching, like looking at the underwear package, like why did I look? Also, they had no reason to give them that abs like that intense I know.

Joey: 15:55

And also, why were they all in black and white? I know, why did they always put the hottest straight men on the underwear too? It's like. Do straight men feel uncomfortable wearing it? Like Like? I gotta know? And?

Tom: 16:03

also, why is it so universal that every queer person knows what we're talking about right now? Yeah, literally.

Joey: 16:10

Anyways, yeah, I'm just thinking about the Target underwear.

Tom: 16:13

I know I'm lost, I'm distracted.

Joey: 16:16

I'm seeing a lot of TikToks recently and like Instagram videos of like people like working out without underwear on and like that's the thing, what yeah?

Tom: 16:26

Outing my for you page.

Joey: 16:28

Yeah, like I feel like everything I watch on like TikTok and Instagram right now is like just men working out and like usually they put like something like some form of enhancement in their underwear or like their, their shorts or something, and they do like a workout and everyone's like obviously the comment section is popping off, being like damn like I have seen a bunch of workout videos where it's just like a close-up of someone's ass doing like leg curls for no reason yeah, I mean I guess I never really noticed if they were wearing underwear or not anyways, um yeah, meanwhile, like yeah, my for you page is booked.

Tom: 17:01

Mine is unfortunately too political. At the moment, I feel like mine's just like gay baiting.

Joey: 17:06

It's like a bunch of like straight people.

Tom: 17:07

I hate that.

Joey: 17:08

Yeah, I cannot get into it, it's straight people that are like just using their body and like the queer community is kind of like jumping in and I'd be like wow, look how sexy and wow hot, and like you know what I mean like it's very gay baiting. Of course the average straight woman isn't being like wow, look, how big your ding dong is in those shorts like no, absolutely not.

Tom: 17:26

Yeah, I would say the queer baiting really pisses me off like I cannot. I don't find the whole straight guy attractive, nonsense yeah I can't get behind that. Straight people that lean into it, I think, are also equally weird well, they're just using the situation to their advantage. You know like yeah, but I think like it crosses a line when it gets financial. You know, it's one thing if you're just trying to get yourself out there, but like a lot of these people are doing it for financial reasons and I think you're just taking advantage of queer people yeah, rainbow washing yeah, especially like in the adult industry well, that's the thing is.

Tom: 17:57

If you want to actually support a queer creator, they're out there you know, if you were looking for someone to just look at their ass. Only. Fans is a great platform for that. You know like it's not hard to find. Yeah, you don't have to go for the straight one, pretending to be gay that's so true.

Joey: 18:12

I want to give the advantage to some people that they don't know whether they're queer or not, and that's why we call it gay baiting is because, like you know, they're purposefully taking on this identity that they're not to make money and profit from um, which is which is sad it is sad.

Tom: 18:26

Well, it's mean. I hate that we live in a society where people are that desperate to like fake a sexuality for financial gain yeah, the exploitation or even yeah, like media attention, you know it's I hate that we live in that world because also like yeah, I'm super happy that like being queer is like great in the public eye and that people like almost aspire to be so because it's.

Tom: 18:46

I think it's something we should be proud of right, but like people have to fake being queer for attention, I think that we've really lost the plot so what are your thoughts on the quick segue?

Joey: 18:55

while we're talking about this, then, what are your thoughts on um, like a straight person playing a queer person on tv, or like a movie set, or like is that okay?

Tom: 19:03

like I mean, yeah, I think that everybody can play any role. You know, um, I think with all of these situations, context is everything you know is this is this like a super pivotal queer role going over like the aids crisis? Maybe that could actually go to a queer person.

Joey: 19:21

Yeah.

Tom: 19:21

You know. But if it's just a sitcom where there's a side character and that their biggest qualm isn't being gay, they're just, they're just part of who they are, then I think that like, sure, I think. But when, especially when being queer is integral to that person or that character's storyline, I think that it is important that a queer person represents that, for two reasons one, I think they can do a better job because it's real, and two, I think it means something to people.

Joey: 19:48

And I think when straight people are like meaning something to queer people, we again we lose the plot right a little bit and I also find that, like, like you said, context, everything like when you know an actor is playing a certain character, like it's publicized that that actor is straight or you know, gay or whatever their identity might be, versus gay baiting online that's trying to make a profit a pretty penny.

Joey: 20:10

They take on this persona, this identity, so far that it's almost like you genuinely think that they are queer and that's how they're making their money until they're, until they come out when they're like oh actually no girlfriend the whole time. Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, thank you for your money, because my girlfriend's got a new car.

Tom: 20:27

That was a whole thing that like I don't know if you know who like timothy champagne is yeah, that's kind of where this is stemming from. Okay, great he made this video that I saw about how he was like complaining that him and his girlfriend are having problems right, which went, which went viral probably. I almost say I don't believe it. It sounds like you're just trying to like make up shit, just to like skirt the issue.

Joey: 20:48

He just released a video recently telling his platform that he's not doing any more like adult films anymore, like in the mail-on-mail.

Tom: 20:57

I mean that's good, I think.

Joey: 21:01

I mean mean like I don't think he, I think it was weird that he was in it for the first time, I don't know why.

Tom: 21:03

Here's the thing gay for pay has always been a thing.

Tom: 21:06

We we been new, um, but like broke straight boys, I just I think that in our current like, social and political climate, there's no reason for us to be going for that type of content. Like, with the access that we have to actual queer content, I think it's weird to know that this person's straight know that they're like participating in queer activities and profiting off of it. Those three things together, when you group them together, I'm like I'm no longer interested, especially because there's other options, and I think that, like, if you have the option of, like if you want to support a content creator doing gay porn, I think it's weird to to specifically opt in for the straight person and not the queer person right you know, like I, when I'm watching something, I want to make it seem like everyone's actually enjoying it.

Tom: 21:58

If someone looks uncomfortable, I'm not interested in that scene. Personally, I mean, hey, maybe it works with other people. No king shame in here.

Joey: 22:07

But like I don't get it right. Yeah, it's not for you, yeah, but I think like the most important thing here is the fact that he's portrayed kind of like online as I want to try this and this is, whereas we don't necessarily think that's true anymore and now it's more so like I think that that's very obviously a lie and in his new video.

Joey: 22:27

What he did say was he's talking about, um, how his he's managed to save over like a million dollars or whatever from it. And then now he's like only going back to like straight roles and he's gonna lose 65 percent of his income or something. Don't quote me on like the analytics and he's gonna lose 65 of his income or something. Don't quote me on like the analytics. But he's like I'm willing to like take a pay cut because I want to go back to like what I actually enjoy versus, and I was like you've already took everyone's money, honey, like yeah, like the damage has been done, and also it's like, yeah, like I good for you, you made your bag.

Tom: 22:56

But like at that point, why not just quit? Why not like thanks, boys.

Joey: 23:02

I feel like at that point, just carry on. Like you know what I mean. Like give the people the content. Like like at this point, like you know, just don't don't be so shameful about it. Like that's the problem is that, like we're like in our power, you know, and then you've got like people that are like shaming the queer community, being like you know, I don't want to be this person, I was just doing it for money. Like okay, well then you shouldn't have done it like morally like that's probably like wrong.

Joey: 23:25

Like you made this bed, yeah, no well I mean, I, I get it too.

Tom: 23:30

It's like he's probably upset about the money that he's gonna be losing. It's like, but okay, well, if you were accepting that you were gonna be like almost like a nobody in the straight porn world. Okay, well then don't yeah and that's my thing is that I think that everyone should be allowed to like make that kind of content if you want to totally I think that you shouldn't be upset when people decide to not subscribe to it.

Joey: 23:51

For those reasons, you know yeah or give you bad comment sections you know what I mean, like you should kind of like expect you know people to come for you a little bit, because at this point it's clear you're gaybaiting.

Tom: 24:03

Because, especially with OnlyFans, the money doesn't come from those videos. The money comes from one-on-one conversations with people. So, he's not. He is messaging people pretending that he's interested in them.

Joey: 24:16

Or he's OnlyFans' manager. That's the thing. He definitely has an agency that has his account that is answering those messages for them interested in them, or like his only fans manager, or that's the thing is someone's running his account.

Tom: 24:21

yeah, that has his account that is answering those messages for them yeah and and. In those messages he is not pretending to be straight he is selling an idea to people which get your bag. I don't care, but you have to be aware of what you're doing. You are lying to people in order to take their money right, yeah weird, yeah A queer person. The lie is not there they are feigning interest, which I don't think is the same.

Joey: 24:43

I agree, to be fair, like I'm like you know, I fully, I fully. Yeah, I don't necessarily support like the the gay baiting and I get like I do understand, like the whole, like you know, like I understand what's going on there, but I think like maybe the step too far was just like how real it felt and like maybe like his Instagram and like you know, like he kind of sold a lie a little bit, like in like his everyday reality versus, like you know, like on Instagram, like that's your reality.

Tom: 25:13

Just say that you're bi. Yeah, who cares my guy?

Joey: 25:17

Oh.

Tom: 25:18

I have a girlfriend, but I sleep with guys.

Joey: 25:22

It's not an issue. Yeah, I like cocking my ass. Yeah, you know great like problem solved, like I I don't know.

Tom: 25:28

The whole thing was like you have to like separate yourself from the queer community, almost. Oh, no, I'm not one of those. Yeah, what do you mean? And I'm dropping out about 20 minutes ago? Yeah, you had a mouthful yeah, literally.

Joey: 25:41

Oh, that is funny. But what I do want to like snag back to was the nature versus nurture.

Tom: 25:48

You gave your like example and psychotic break kind of how people can be genetically predisposed to things.

Joey: 25:54

Right. So knowing this and having this like mindset, maybe like an advantage, I want to call it like this educational piece that you have. What is your genuine thoughts Like? What are your personal thoughts on nature versus nurture? Like do you think you were born this way, gaga, or do you think you were you?

Tom: 26:14

know it's so funny. So my actual like final, like presentation in university was about it was an ethical genetics course okay it was just a discussion-based course and we got. We just talked about like ethics problems and genetics, because it's a very hot topic in that field. Um and like, for our final like presentation, we had to like pick a topic that we all got to do. We wanted to do so and mine was actually on the hunt for the gay gene okay, ethics behind that?

Tom: 26:38

um, because I genuinely think it is extremely unethical for us as scientists to try and isolate the gay gene. Um, if they're so, it's a not sorry.

Joey: 26:46

What do you mean by isolate it like? Do you think it's not down to one?

Tom: 26:49

find like a, a gene that would like make someone gay okay I would like to preface this that there's no such thing as a gay gene. Um, they have found like a genetic component to it, but it's based on like multi-factors right no one gene that makes people gay, at least that we know of um, but we what we? The general consensus, to my knowledge, is that it's a. It's a over a cross of multiple genes that have influences on your behavior, which would create being gay. The hunt for the gay gene and the ethics behind that?

Tom: 27:20

I think that, based on our current climate, providing a mechanism for changing people, um, is a very dangerous and slippery slope. Um, if you look at eugenics, do you know what eugenics is?

Joey: 27:35

No idea.

Tom: 27:36

Eugenics is the idea that you can improve a race by not allowing certain people to breed. It was very heavily used by the Nazis, umies um, as well as the alberta government really um, oh yeah, they got a not good history of that.

Tom: 27:56

Um, the eugenics in alberta was real bad. So, specifically, eugenics is the the belief that if you take people in this society that you have deemed as undesirables, and if you sterilize them or prevent them from from passing on their genetics, that over time society will improve, and you can probably see how, um the German party, uh, in the 1930s, um took this idea and ran with it. Right Um, because there was a certain group of people that they wanted to exterminate.

Tom: 28:27

Um but and ran with it, right, um, because there was a certain group of people that they wanted to exterminate. Um, but so eugenics also fell under the stair. Uh, the um category of people who were like were, uh, had mental disorders, um, criminals, um, and a bunch of people were forcibly sterilized, and specifically in alberta, there was a lot of people who, um, just from birth, just found out that they were sterilized by the Alberta government because they were deemed undesirables.

Joey: 28:51

What years are we talking here? I think the.

Tom: 28:52

Alberta government ended this in 1980, in the 1980s.

Joey: 28:56

Ended yeah.

Tom: 28:57

It's most places across the world. Once World War II ended, they had like a general consensus of ooh, maybe we shouldn't do this, because the people who are doing those really bad things really liked this idea and they used it to.

Tom: 29:13

They use it to grow the idea of what the germans wanted to do right because obviously they had to plant some ideas in people's head and they used the the guise of improving germany financially and socially to do so. So they use that scapegoat and the kind of the world realized like, oh, that maybe this science doesn't have as much. It's a pseudoscience, it doesn't much much and much weight to it or merit to it I've I read a book actually regarding like.

Joey: 29:38

Something like this is called um oh my god, it begins with a d. Is it called dystopia or something I can't remember, but it's about, basically they think the love gene is like um toxic.

Tom: 29:50

Okay, so on your 18th birthday.

Joey: 29:51

They remove the the ability to be able to like love.

Tom: 29:54

Okay.

Joey: 29:55

And then they like match you up with a suitor and like your genes are like, basically like supposed to be like the best of the best Cause, like you're going to procreate with this person, like and stuff, but like not in a way for love, because they believe love is toxic and like love, so only passing on the best genetic material right, so like this is kind of like for you talking about this, like that's what. It's kind of ringing bell for me. There's three books. I can't remember what it's called.

Tom: 30:16

I think it's called I would love to read oh, it's called delirium, delirium, okay, yes, yeah um, yeah, give it a read.

Joey: 30:22

It's actually a great book, but have you ever watched gattaca?

Tom: 30:26

have you ever watched gattaca? No, you have to watch this what is that so? It's? It's a genetic movie, um, I think it came out like maybe the early 90s, okay, um, and it's all about in a world that has, like, everyone has their perfect genes. It's all about designer babies okay um, which is another big topic in ethics, um, but essentially it's like, if you can pick your own genome, like would you? And what the societal effects of that would be if people were actually able to control their own genetics.

Tom: 30:55

Right, and I won't go too much into it because it's it's a very complex, complex movie with like a lot of like nuances right but it's if you are looking for something that really explores, um, the dangers of like editing genomes and what that can mean to us, because you have to remember that genome technologies aren't available for everybody.

Tom: 31:14

And actually in my ethical genetics courses one of the girls that I really looked up to her name is Julia she. She brought up the concept that I had never heard before and I think she generally brought it like made it up herself, it was a genetic stratification Okay, heard before and I think she genuinely brought it like made it up herself, it was a genetic stratification okay which is that, like, over time, through the use of like genetic um technologies, that rich people can increase their genomics um better than poor people can and that, over time, certain diseases will only be prevalent in poor populations, right, which will then cause certain doctors to not know about these diseases because they're not prevalent in their people that they're treating right which causes a disproportionate effect on poor people wow, which is crazy because it's like, it's like segregating the entire like population.

Tom: 32:02

But genetically be only because they're poor right because so, for example, do you know what?

Joey: 32:06

ivf is.

Tom: 32:07

Yep, so IVF, you definitely can control certain genetic factors in that development. And here's the thing is I think it was 2014,. The CRISPR babies were born. The what babies? Oh, CRISPR babies.

Joey: 32:20

What's that.

Tom: 32:20

So CRISPR is a genome editing tool. Basically, you give it a sequence of DNA, okay, and it goes, and it finds that exact same sequence of DNA and it cuts it out. So only that sequence of that genome is gone.

Joey: 32:36

And what give an example Like. What is that? What like?

Tom: 32:39

so, for example, like what would you be cutting out?

Joey: 32:41

What do you know? I'll tell you about my research Um so I did research on heart development. Okay.

Tom: 32:47

So I was determined to figure out how this one gene called PD-LIM7 would factor into heart development and what the actual mechanisms of that gene would do. So I used CRISPR-Cas9 solution and it would remove the PD-Lim7 gene so that I could watch the heart develop in the absence of this gene, and so I could see what things went wrong in the heart in the absence of this gene.

Joey: 33:19

Okay, does that make sense? I'm curious what went wrong.

Tom: 33:23

So CRISPR-Cas9 is really useful because it allows someone to make the CRISPR babies, which was the first genetically altered human.

Joey: 33:32

Okay, there's two of them.

Tom: 33:33

So it happened in China and like so the world, all the scientists had agreed we weren't going to do this, because once you do it, once, there's no stopping it. It's truly Pandora's box, because a lot of people can get access to these things Right, and I did this as an undergraduate student like I. I mean, obviously I could not do that to a human because there's so many other like factors involved there.

Joey: 33:54

But right all it takes is one doctor who's like I want to try something, but even like, and like you talking about like on fish, that's like what we eat. Like if I accidentally got released into, like the wild, that could change, like our food.

Tom: 34:09

It can.

Joey: 34:09

Yeah, and like are, like you know, like anything, like you know, like what you're saying, like there is, like this, a lot of factors that, once it's done, once it could, like you know, negatively impact us for the future.

Tom: 34:20

Well, also just because, like what? If so, I'll give you the example.

Joey: 34:30

The reason they did it was that because the mother was HIV positive.

Tom: 34:32

So she the mother of the fish, no of the babies.

Joey: 34:34

Oh, okay, the human babies. Okay, so we're talking, we're probably going back to okay, she has an active HIV infection. Okay.

Tom: 34:39

She has two babies. Hiv infections need a certain cell thing to I can't remember the name, uh, to land on. If you remove that, that, that cell marker HIV cannot infiltrate the cell, the CRISPR babies. He was able to genetically alter these two children to make it that they would become immune to HIV, because during the birth process blood is mixed. So if this person did not use this CRISPR modification, the children would have gotten HIV.

Joey: 35:13

They'd be positive.

Tom: 35:14

But because there is this CRISPR injection, the babies are perfectly resistant to HIV.

Joey: 35:22

Okay.

Tom: 35:23

And it's really important because you can only do these gene modifications at the embryo stage, because I was talking about how it has to affect every single cell. You'd have to get injections into every single cell, it wouldn't work, whereas if you do it during the embryo, that they're still like forming and like growing it starts with the one cell and then when you make that change in that one cell, when that cell divides into two cells and then four.

Joey: 35:46

Right, it's in all of those cells. So at that stage, that's when it's kind of like multiplying yes.

Tom: 35:51

Right. So what he was able to do is make these two babies that were completely immune to HIV Sounds like a great thing, right. Your babies were going to have this HIV infection. Now they're not. They get to live a happy, healthy life. However, you first started the act of genetically modifying humans for what we think we should be doing. So if you start with HIV, what's so wrong about saying, okay, well, I don't want my kid to have HIV? Could you also make my kid taller?

Joey: 36:24

Could you make?

Tom: 36:24

my kid smarter. Could, you give my kid blue eyes and then it comes to the fact of you actually get to pick your own baby, right? Crisper babies are the whole designer babies, right? And those things have happened like we are aware that there are humans out there that have been genetically modified using these to be stronger like stronger.

Tom: 36:43

I mean, here's the thing is there are definitely. I'm sure you could find a myoskeleton mutant. So myoskeleton mutants are, they have like massive muscles and it's due to some specific genetic modification and we can do it in animals. What happens if that same modification was done in a human Right? You know what's stopping now that we've done one modification, what's stopping us from trying another Right?

Joey: 37:06

And that's the thing we're so curious is like a race to where's the line.

Tom: 37:10

Right, when is it too far? Right, you know? Ooh, it's scary because, like there really is. So I'll go back to the whole genetics stratification thing. Okay, because if someone is using IVF technologies to, to, to have offspring over a couple of and they get to pick only the best attributes, they have fully weeded out all of their negative problems in their future.

Tom: 37:37

And I think people often marry and have children within their own socioeconomic groups, like, for example, if you grew up in a really poor area, it's much harder for you to be in contact with people who are in really high socioeconomic groups. So it's more typical for you to be in contact with people who are in really high socioeconomic groups. So it's more typical that you would find someone who you were felt those connections with within your own socioeconomic group.

Joey: 37:55

You really interact with them more.

Tom: 37:56

Yeah, yeah so what ends up happening is people kind of try and stay within their own socioeconomic groups, but over time those socioeconomic groups are going to start having problems that they didn't beforehand.

Joey: 38:08

Right.

Tom: 38:08

Because right now a good example, let's go malaria you know, yep. If malaria is affecting its population. Right now everyone's studying it so that when you go to the hospital and you get a malaria infection, you have some course of treatment because they've seen it before. What happens if you live in a really rich neighborhood and you get this disease that only affects poor people?

Joey: 38:28

Right.

Tom: 38:29

And there's not medical access to treatment around you I mean, obviously these are completely made up situations and they're going to happen over like hundreds of years.

Joey: 38:37

Yeah, but it's true, genuinely you wouldn't carry, like you know, the, the, I don't know what it's called the inoculation or whatever for that specific virus.

Tom: 38:50

If it was like in a poor community and you were in a you know what? Well, also, if that virus isn't around, why would you have? Information on it because you know, as doctors, there's kind of this like trade-off of what you know about a topic right because you can't know everything well, it's like even like country specific right, like if you you're more

Tom: 39:04

aware of, like you know, more streams of like viruses and, like you know, yes, in your own country, common in your area, right you know, if you know that people have this like certain disorder and it affects like it's like your third patient, that we could see that, like you recognize those things. But when you don't have access to information on things because they just don't happen to your people, why would you keep studying?

Tom: 39:25

it right and like with like, for example, a lot of like genetic disorders there's people that are like, are trying to decide like. You know which ones do we help because some of them like there's. It affects so few people. Why would we put resources into finding a solution for this if it only affects one person out of 300 million? Right, you know it's. It's hard to.

Joey: 39:46

It's a rarity it.

Tom: 39:47

It's such a rarity that it becomes difficult for people to justify putting money and resources into studying it Mm-hmm. Whereas something like cancer affects so many people. It's so common that, like that, funding is very accessible to oncologists, mm-hmm, whereas if you are working on some rare genetic condition that affects two people out of every hundred million there's no studies on those, yeah, exactly, so it's hard for you to find resources for them.

Joey: 40:19

With this being theoretical, let's go back to, potentially, how this could affect the queer world.

Tom: 40:25

Yeah, I think that's a great idea.

Tom: 40:26

So I would like to touch on the topic of the whole like hunt for the gay gene, because as we try and decide which factors are more increasingly like, they have more likelihood chance of being involved in creating a behavioral change and essentially making it making someone queer.

Tom: 40:43

The more that we study those things, the closer we we do get to the actual genetic, biological components. I think this can be extremely dangerous because as we progress through society with genetic technologies, these are just things that people can use to target queer people. Um, and I think that when it comes to the fact that people are going to have designer babies pretty soon, they're going to start selecting against queer people and that when we find these actual biological and genetic factors, it just gives a route for people to target. If you can then cut out those genes in the offspring and have a significantly lower chance of your child being queer, people will do that under the guise of I want my child to have an easier life, which just removes that genome, that person's that queer person from the pool and I unfortunately create some diminishing numbers over time.

Joey: 41:37

OK, my, I'm processing.

Tom: 41:40

No, it's a lot.

Joey: 41:41

Well, yes, it is and I understand it. But now my my like. Going back to my original question question do you think there is a gay gene then? Do you think there's something like a piece of us that is like created, like from our?

Tom: 41:56

you know, I think, that, um, there's definitely some genetic factors component, like factors that are heavily involved. I don't think it's one deciding, and so I think that, like you could have all genetic factors, I think there has to be some kind of environmental factor that does create some kind of change in you, and sometimes that is actually just the uterine environment. So have you heard of the theory that the more boys a mom has, yeah, okay, great.

Joey: 42:21

So Paul talked about this on his episode. Yeah, correct.

Tom: 42:24

Yeah, so that's because during when a mother is pregnant with a baby, um, there is some transfer of amniotic fluid.

Joey: 42:32

Right.

Tom: 42:33

Um, so the mother's blood does get mixed with the baby's blood a little bit, and the reason that the more males would have you have increased the chance of your child being gay is because during the mixing of the amniotic fluid, the mother has a mixing of the baby's blood, but the baby's blood has a Y chromosome and they got that from the dad. But so that's specifically why it only matters with boys. Is that when a person is pregnant with a fetus that is XY, there is some of that Y chromosome that intermingles with her blood and what ends up happening is she has no Y chromosomes in her body, so her body is like what the fuck is that? That shouldn't be here.

Tom: 43:19

That's not part of our. It's not part of the human or the baby, so why the fuck is it here? So what she does is she starts building these um antigens against the y chromosome or whatever boy factor it was. So what she does is her body attacks the, the embryo in this, in a biological sense and it non-invasive non-invasive yeah, but it doesn't hurt the child but um it does apply like, apply like some factors to it, like there is like an actual physiological response that happens, um, and they call it feminizing the uterus.

Tom: 43:54

Um, so the more, the more, the more often it happens. So if mother has, like one boy, her body, her, her body makes a certain amount of antigens to this, this protein. When she has a second boy, it happens again and her body and all the antigens go off and they're like whoaogens go off and they're like whoa, whoa, whoa, that thing. Again they're coming back. We need to make more. And then if you have a third boy, it feminizes the uterus even harder. So this is why, as you have a family of boys, the youngest is more often to be gay because it's been feminized harder than the other ones.

Joey: 44:23

Right. So in logistic terms the youngest would be more feminine versus the first birthed boy, as the womb hadn't been it didn't have yeah, it didn't have, like those war, those warning signs yet interesting. That makes sense. I think the way paul described it was more so like the body or like the uh, I can't remember who it was, but paul. Like I know paul said it, but I can't remember who, um where the theory came from, whether it's research or his own theory but there is research on it.

Joey: 44:56

It's like it's documented yeah, no, but paul had said that in in different terminology. It was more so that the more boys you give birth to, um, it wouldn't matter, like, like the, the family name would still be carried on. So one of them could be potentially gay because your bloodline was automatically going to be passed along by the other.

Tom: 45:15

Yeah, uh, male brothers, one of them, one of the other brothers, yeah, yeah like as long as someone is passing it on there's, there could be a chance of that comes back to the whole. Does having a queer person in your family increase fitness? Because a lot of sociologists, sociologists, uh, sociologists, will argue that they did and you know, by having a queer person at home it increases, like the overall fitness of the family why does it though?

Tom: 45:39

well, um it just it's another person to stay at home, right? So if you have, like a queer sibling, they like they're not doing the typical male roles they can help out more at home well, thanks for sharing that.

Joey: 45:49

I feel like that was um very educational great, I love talking about these things yeah, I um yeah I feel like it's really important that we bring on different people's perspectives, educations like you know um their experiences, onto the pod and just like talk about. You know what makes us queer, or diversity is great.

Tom: 46:10

Yeah, you know that's good, let's listen to the same thing over and over again let's test two babies.

Joey: 46:16

Everyone's gonna be the same. We're all gonna look the same, sound the same.

Tom: 46:18

Oh my god it's own can of worms.

Joey: 46:21

I'll be gone before then yeah, ai will take over by then.

Tom: 46:25

Literally yeah, it'll all be chat GBT and they'll tell us how we're supposed to look at that point, yikes.

Joey: 46:32

I think that's all I have in regards to genetics and that We've talked about your early stories. We've talked about nature versus nurture and the genetic pieces, the scientific background and what you have to share there.

Tom: 46:45

Yeah, I think that's a big point.

Joey: 46:48

We went through a lot, I know, yeah, we should definitely do a part two. I think that brings us to the end of like a this, this segment, um, so well, thank you for being here. I had a great time. Thank you for having me, yeah, and thanks for sharing your like knowledge on um genetics and and just kind of like opening my eyes especially to like genetics and um, yeah, we probably will have you back, most likely very soon, right?

Tom: 47:24

next up on this pod, we'll go over histones. Hey, google define histones.