Joey: 0:13

welcome back to another episode of I'm not gay. You are with your host, joey, that is me. Today's episode is a little different to what we would typically do, because I'm going to be sitting in the hot seat. I'm actually the one going to be interviewed, and the one leading the conversation today is our very own the Chill Therapist. That's me.

The Chill Therapist (Krisztina Fovenyi): 0:37

I'm Christina, aka the Chill Therapist. I'm a clinical counselor here in Vancouver and I guess I have the power today to put your host on the hot seat, which I love. I love that.

Joey: 0:52

The chill therapist, aka Christina, is going to be leading the conversation and I myself am going to be in the hot seat and talking about a lot of which you've probably already heard throughout the podcast people's journeys and experiences, sexuality coming out, and you know the identity piece we're here today to get her professional opinion, I guess, on my experiences.

The Chill Therapist (Krisztina Fovenyi): 1:19

The other piece that might make today a bit different is that we're actually going to sit a little bit more with the why around some of these pieces and the how, so I guess the impact. So I know you've done a lot of chatting about coming out and internalized homophobia and a lot of these really big themes when it comes to our sexuality in the past on the podcast, and we're gonna kind of sit with the why of those things and how it impacts you. He's losing his therapy v card tonight, yep, by sitting with me and talking about this. So that is a rare, a rarity.

Joey: 1:57

This is like this is the second time I'm losing my virginity we are popping your cherry my therapy cherry therapy cherry, therapy, cherry, yeah yeah, it's an honor. Oh, there she goes. Is that what it does?

The Chill Therapist (Krisztina Fovenyi): 2:09

I don't know nonetheless, we're popping yours tonight okay you requested to be more submissive in this episode I requested to be popped that's me putting on my dominant pants. I'm curious, uh, how much of your coming out story you've shared with your listeners so far.

Joey: 2:27

Throw me under a bus. Call me Regina George.

The Chill Therapist (Krisztina Fovenyi): 2:31

This internalized homophobia in the room with us.

Joey: 2:34

Literally, she's here, she's here. Yeah, I find that my journey was very broken in a sense of like coming out, very broken in a sense of like um coming out. It wasn't like I told everyone on on one day, and it was across like two or three years, that I was like actively sleeping with men and like comfortable with you know that decision and like me doing that and then also, uh, like my parents didn't know, but like right close friends knew and that was really it.

Joey: 3:07

And if people addressed me gay, like in, like a work setting they didn't really know, I would just go along with it because they did it for you, yeah, and they also didn't know like straight joe or joe that like struggled to come out, so like, like you said, they already did it for me.

The Chill Therapist (Krisztina Fovenyi): 3:20

So it was like I didn't have to like take that burden or like come out and be a certain person which makes sense, right, because the journey of coming out is not like, it's not like a hallmark event, like it looks in hollywood right, where people are just like holy shit, I'm gay and today's the day I tell everybody I know and also like.

Joey: 3:42

I feel like to that point, though, too, like also how we make it out to be like to this day now, even to this day, I always say, like you know, cake and rainbows and smiles. Like you know, did you get all that like? At the time when I was coming out, that was the last thing on my mind. I didn't want to draw attention to it.

The Chill Therapist (Krisztina Fovenyi): 3:57

So there's the coming out to yourself right, which is like the journey in which you are accepting your sexuality, and it sucks that we have to accept it right, but we'll get into that in a second with compulsory heteronormativity. But the first stage of coming out for you is coming out to yourself right, like stumbling upon who you are. What was that like for you before you told anyone else?

Joey: 4:32

um, I obviously like frightening and scary because the realization of like the therapy virgin is already sweating yeah, literally I'm like, my hands are so moist.

The Chill Therapist (Krisztina Fovenyi): 4:43

I'll go easy on you do you remember the process of coming out to yourself, so stumbling upon, accepting, embracing, like this is who I am no, and that's probably not the answer that you're looking for, but no, I don't remember being okay with being gay.

Joey: 5:05

What I remember is this is going to sound so sad hating myself for being gay. And also I remember I've shared this in an episode before but I remember like using online dating platforms with like a blank profile. Like using online dating platforms with like a blank profile just to talk to men, like virtually as like a step because I was. I. I couldn't even like have a conversation with another gay man that was comfortable with their sexuality because I thought, by association, people would look at me and think I was gay.

The Chill Therapist (Krisztina Fovenyi): 5:40

That's how so the internalized homophobia is in the room with us and so for you when you say you know when I ask you about like embracing your sexuality and you track that. That started with hating yourself. Do you feel like you're at a place now where you embrace it, or are you still learning how to do that?

Joey: 6:04

I think I'm like comfortable. Well, no, I know I'm comfortable with who I am and where I'm at in life, but I don't doubt that there is a lot of humor that surrounds certain situations that I create, in a sense that I'm avoiding truths or again, maybe taken back to like more of like a heavier feeling in me and instead I tried to make it more light-hearted. So I like address it with humor. Does that answer your?

The Chill Therapist (Krisztina Fovenyi): 6:33

question yeah, so there's like as much as you are learning to love who you are and you feel authentic and loving who you are, you track there those moments where you're masking a difficult feeling, whether that's like shame or like confusion or like you're doing something wrong, you still feel that bubble up.

Joey: 6:57

Totally Like, especially like in certain like social, like events or like settings. I feel like an example would be I'm not a huge fan of pda like holding hands with my partner in like the street and stuff again because I don't like to draw attention and I feel like that makes me uncomfortable how do you feel when you witness hetero pda?

Joey: 7:28

also disgusted so for you, like around the board, it's a no-go yeah, but I think the difference is I'm envious of the people that are in a hetero relationship, that just hold hands and don't feel like they're being judged, and that's what I'm envious of is like and like I don't know, like maybe I'm not being judged and like this is definitely like an internalized problem which I'm very much aware of, but I'm sure there's other people out there that have the same kind of like experience so it doesn't feel like when we're envious of something, it's because we don't feel like we can have it right.

The Chill Therapist (Krisztina Fovenyi): 8:09

So somebody has something we don't, and so in this, that straight couple that's holding hands has something that you don't have access to. What is that like? What do they have there that you feel like you don't? I guess like social acceptance yeah, and like permission right to just they don't even think about the fact that they they're doing that.

Joey: 8:34

I think that's what bothers me, I think, because dissecting it with the naked eye it's like not a big deal, but then like taking it home and like realizing and thinking like the heterosexual couple that is male and female walking down the street holding hands feels comfortable to do so and they would never think otherwise, versus the two men that want to hold hands going down the street, that have battled to be where they want, where they are today internally, or you know, not internally and like also like physically maybe, um yeah, yeah, and it's.

The Chill Therapist (Krisztina Fovenyi): 9:14

It brings us to the point of like internal versus external barriers to embracing queerness and like sexuality. Right, because embracing queerness and like sexuality right because fortunately I could speak for Joey and I, like, living in Vancouver, there's not a lot of external barriers that would make it unsafe for us to be practicing queers in the city. Right like it's yeah, you're the minority.

The Chill Therapist (Krisztina Fovenyi): 9:39

If you're not queer in Vancouver, don't quote me on that. I don't have a site. And so we are privileged enough that we don't have to worry about external barriers such as like being unsafe right, that's a privilege, I recognize that we don't have to worry about that. But in what you're describing, there's no one saying you can't hold your boyfriend's hand when you're walking down the street, and there's no one. It's unlikely that anything negative would happen if you were to do that. And still there's a barrier, right. So that's an internal experience that you're up against that's preventing you from being able to enjoy, like a very basic relational experience in public. And so if, if we label that internal thing I know we're saying internalized homophobia, but like, what's the emotion of that? What? What emotion do you feel? Or what emotion do you imagine you'd feel if you were to hold your boyfriend's hand in public?

Joey: 10:52

insert crickets yeah, tumbleweed um. I don't think it gives me necessarily like a power or like an emotion in our relationship or like for me. I don't think you're like you're wrong? Yeah, does it.

The Chill Therapist (Krisztina Fovenyi): 11:09

I don't know like well, there's like it starts with a s and ends with a h-a-m-e h-a-m-e.

Joey: 11:20

Oh, shame bingo, I'm like there it is.

The Chill Therapist (Krisztina Fovenyi): 11:25

You're so pretty I it's my sehame shahami, shame, shame yeah, that triggers me the. There's no external barrier that prevents joey from holding his boyfriend's hand. In the city that we live in, most of the barriers are internal. We've labeled that as internalized homophobia.

Joey: 11:46

So joey hate crimes himself essentially what's if I was to walk down the street and a person was to yell faggot at me?

The Chill Therapist (Krisztina Fovenyi): 11:55

that's externalized homophobia, so that's, that's just, but that is a phobia but that is a piece to what we're talking about.

Joey: 12:03

So you're saying there's no barriers where we live, but I'm scared that that's going to happen. I don't want the attention. I don't want people to like single me out and be like I'm different, so therefore I deserve that hate crime language.

The Chill Therapist (Krisztina Fovenyi): 12:18

So you have fear around actual homophobia, being like a victim of actual homophobia, and you have internalized homophobia, which makes you the ultimate homophobe which makes you the winner of homophobia.

The Chill Therapist (Krisztina Fovenyi): 12:38

that's what creates the discomfort, right? So the the fear and'm going to validate that the fear is real, right. The fear of being criticized or hated for who you are Right, like, we're not going to negate that. There is a piece of that. That's just point blank homophobia. And then we have this added piece where, even if you were in an environment where you were, it was not likely that you weren't to be accepted. So you know, like on main street, at like an lgbtq friendly bar or something in that event, if you still are feeling like you don't have access to doing the thing the straight couple's doing right in front of you holding your partner's hand, there's a bigger internal piece there. Right that that you're up against yeah, that makes sense which brings us to the shame.

Joey: 13:35

Yeah, I want to know what that bigger piece is well is it starts with s and ends in humami.

The Chill Therapist (Krisztina Fovenyi): 13:42

Yeah, it's the shame piece. And so, if we pause there, what's your relationship to your shame? Like, do you feel like you know it well? Do you feel like you're scared of it? Like, how do you relate to the shame that you carry as it relates to your sexuality?

Joey: 14:03

I don't fully understand. I understand the question, but I don't fully understand. I understand the question, but I don't know how to identify the relationship between myself and shame so if your shame had a mic and we were like joey's shame, like is that right here?

The Chill Therapist (Krisztina Fovenyi): 14:20

yeah, if shame was in the room with us and we miked her up, I'm going to give her a gender. I guess your shame is she her, if we mic'd up your shame.

Joey: 14:29

Let's call shame Helga. Oh, that's let's make If she's inside me and she's living there and she's a big piece of who I am. Helga is her name.

The Chill Therapist (Krisztina Fovenyi): 14:40

Okay, helga, who is inside? Joey, shame, don't get excited. So if shame had a mic and we were to say, like, give us your elevator pitch for why you exist, like what would your shame say as it relates to your sexuality?

Joey: 15:00

I think all I can think of at the top of my head is more so like situational that's happened in the past is that like people have always tried to out me before I was ever ready and the terminology to be gay. And like you know, when people tell you that you're gay, typically they don't tell you in a polite way, they tell you in like more of a shameful, hateful way and it's used against you and not t like used for you as a win. It's not like oh my god, honey, you're. So you like you're queer and you're gay and like I love who you are. It's never said like that. It's like you're a fag or you're gay or that's gay. I'm going to share like a story like really quickly because it's it's not off topic.

Joey: 15:46

But prior to me moving to Canada, I worked for a really large fast food chain. I was coming on to my shift and I was just starting and I looked at the schedule and there was a manager on duty that I didn't really like. I didn't think that was like a nice person, but still like he was my manager. I wasn't gonna say anything about it and he walked over to me and my back was against the wall and he came up to me on in the, on the front counter, in front of all of like this was like a very public setting, in front of like guests and everything, and he made a joke or something about me being gay and I said, like in response no, I'm not, I'm not gay, like you know. Like um, defensive, 100%, like you know, I'm not gay and all this stuff. And the he picked me up by the my collar of my shirt, put me against the wall and said you're the biggest faggot that I know and that lives with me rent-free every single.

Joey: 16:44

And I remember leaving and that was the first time I've ever cried in public and I ran off the shift, literally. And I remember running off shift and there were like two people that chased me but never made me feel that that was not okay instantly. They were like oh my god, are you okay? Like first of all, why the fuck would you say that? No, I just ran off crying and like grabbed my bag and then left to the front door through like a busy rush on a Saturday morning. That stuck with me for life and I feel like that shame piece is like again, like this is where it comes in is like when people say oh like you're queer and you're so fucking fun, or you're, you're gay and like it like nowadays, maybe so like, maybe I don't know.

Joey: 17:29

Like I don't want to talk for, like our generation. That's also not what I'm here to do, but the shame piece definitely comes from like when people told me I was gay and like it was never in like a positive way. And again, I was always very defiant and it took me moving to a different country to feel comfortable with who I am, because I didn't have to face people I didn't know or people I used to be straight around. I guess.

The Chill Therapist (Krisztina Fovenyi): 17:54

Yeah.

Joey: 17:55

It was a long winded answer.

The Chill Therapist (Krisztina Fovenyi): 17:58

No, it makes sense though, right, and it's interesting how our brains work that way. Right, like I asked you about an emotion that's very clearly directed to the internalized homophobia piece, which is very clearly directed to the internal barrier for you to embrace your sexuality and have, like, basic rights in your relationship in public, right, like hold your partner's hand. So we're kind of like chipping down to the core of what makes that difficult. And it's interesting when our brains think of a moment, right, because that moment meant something to you in terms of why you carry shame around this right, and whether you can articulate what that is or not, whether you move to a different continent or not, that's still with you, right.

The Chill Therapist (Krisztina Fovenyi): 18:51

So you live in a very progressive city where there's permission to be queer and there's safe spaces and it's celebrated acceptance, and this part lives inside of you, regardless of which continent you're in right, which prevents you from being able to do something. That's a very basic privilege for the straights. So, as we're holding the shame piece, it's obviously big, it's obviously heavy and deeply rooted right, like, as we're learning, it stems way back. And so I'm curious for you like, obviously, because that feeling is so heavy and difficult to hold, it's easier to avoid it, and so, in order to avoid it, we try to lean into what's normative or normal, which is heteronormativity, right, being hetero is the default in society. And so I'm curious for you did you pretend to be straight, like did you? Was there a period of your life where you tried to make that work to avoid dealing with this part of yourself?

Joey: 20:06

yeah, I feel that most of my, like you know, young adulthood life, when I was going out like I was very clearly showing attributes of a queer gay man very like high pitched voice, like hung around with all the girls, like wasn't really interested in, like sports, and I guess there are stereotypes and I do recognize that. But unfortunately they were categorizing me and put me into a box without me fully being aware of what that box was at the time. Um, but I think because of this eternal internalized homophobia and like this shame piece like that I just grown up with, I was naturally like placing myself into these stereotypes and did the straight thing work for you, because I think that's where sometimes people get confused, is that?

Joey: 20:54

I had a girlfriend for a year and a half.

The Chill Therapist (Krisztina Fovenyi): 20:56

And were you? Were there parts of you that aligned with that? Obviously, there were some parts that didn't but like Believe it or not not, those parts.

Joey: 21:07

That's where this is very different and difficult for me is because I didn't have an experience with ex-partners where I didn't enjoy like sexual activity with them, right, like that was, it's all I knew too, like I had not had sex with men at this point or not, like you know, indulged into same-sex, you know coupling, um. So it's all I knew and obviously it felt good and this partner of mine was good to me and like loving it just.

The Chill Therapist (Krisztina Fovenyi): 21:39

And it allowed you to not face.

Joey: 21:42

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

The Chill Therapist (Krisztina Fovenyi): 21:45

If, if you can align enough with heterosexuality, it allows you to not have to face those parts of self Right.

Joey: 21:56

Mm, hmm.

The Chill Therapist (Krisztina Fovenyi): 21:58

And so what you're describing? It has a term. I'm gonna throw it out there. It's a tongue twister compulsory heteronormativity. But we can shorten it to comp het. Right, and it's. It's basically the idea that being straight is the default that brings us into comp het, which is basically the idea that being straight is the default that brings us into compet, which is basically the idea that being straight is the default Right.

The Chill Therapist (Krisztina Fovenyi): 22:20

So Disney movies, rom-coms, people asking what your mom and dad do like all of that is built around systems that make straightness the default Right. And so if you're in a system or a society that has heteronormativity at its center, at its core, and pieces of heterosexuality work for you, you're going to try to fit into that mold, right? So if heterosexuality is normal in the society you live in, which it very much still is, and pieces of that work for you, the safer option is for you to follow that system when you actually subscribe to the system. That allows you to stay safe and allows you to not face that part of yourself, and it's the default system that everyone else is fitting into.

Joey: 23:25

That makes sense.

The Chill Therapist (Krisztina Fovenyi): 23:26

You look like you're processing here. This is where my therapy hat is on. I'm like he's lost. You have like eight tabs open in your brain right now.

Joey: 23:34

There's probably more than eight.

The Chill Therapist (Krisztina Fovenyi): 23:37

Like what comes up. I see the rainbow wheel. At this point I'm like what comes up for you with the compet piece. So heterosexuality is the default. Heterosexuality is like the mold that exists in society and you, having your experience, where you try to make that work for yourself, right it?

Joey: 24:03

it sounds like it created confusion for you I'm not sure whether it was confusion or just more so like comfortability. Comfortability is that the right word?

The Chill Therapist (Krisztina Fovenyi): 24:13

yeah, so you got to avoid facing the uncomfortable by subscribing to the hetero norm. All of that to validate, like there's your own internal emotions around why holding his hand is hard and not accessible and there's this wider systemic thing happening outside of you as well, right, which is that the system around you is not built for you to hold his hand, and that's kind of like what you're against on a daily basis, I guess.

Joey: 24:42

so like, even though I know that like this is the thing, it's like hard, because I feel like we're talking like past self and like present self, but even though I know that like where I live is very progressive and very accepting and there's this huge like comfortability piece, I still like I don't know, I'm still like worried yeah, and like that's where I think about the younger you that got held up against a wall.

The Chill Therapist (Krisztina Fovenyi): 25:12

Like that you just shared with us.

The Chill Therapist (Krisztina Fovenyi): 25:14

Right, where it's like we can't you can't unlearn that experience, right, so I like that you just shared with us. Right, where it's like we can't you can't unlearn that experience, right, so I like that you use language of parts, because we do that a lot in therapy. Right, that there's it's not just all of Joey doesn't want to hold his boyfriend's hand, or it's not just all of Joey that really wants to. Right, like there's a part of you that wants to probably feel empowered to be able to do that and have, like the basic right to be able to express care to your partner in public. There's a part of you that wants that and there's a part of you that fears that and rejects that because of what happened to you in the past. Right, so, you're. Right we're holding so many parts of you that are all happening within one person at one time that you have to hold in that moment where you're like I feel like I want to hold his hand, but nothing within me is allowing me to do that you obviously can.

The Chill Therapist (Krisztina Fovenyi): 26:15

You have a podcast about sexuality and coming out and homophobia and internalized homophobia, and when you're in the position where, like your brain knows it's okay for us to talk about these things, you're you're having like a visceral, physical, somatic experience, right. That doesn't line up. So your brain's like we're on the podcast, we're supposed to talk about this, and your body's like this is really scary, like I feel the shame and I feel the fear and it's. I think it's just important for us to acknowledge that and that's why I'm not trying to call you out, but just for your viewers that it's like this is like a gay man who has a podcast and is comfortable in his relationship and still, when we try to dig down into the layers, like those emotions come up right, like you're holding your breath and you're covering your face and the shame and the fear.

Joey: 27:09

My hands are clammy. I'm like fidgeting, but I've triggered him folks.

The Chill Therapist (Krisztina Fovenyi): 27:13

I'm not sleeping well tonight. Great success.

Joey: 27:19

No, I think it's very valid, valid like all this is very valid and, like you know, like I'm very much aware, I think of like what I'm going through and like who I am and I'm not ashamed of who I am today. I think there's just more growing to do and more understanding of like what I've been through, to be who I want to be and like I do want to feel empowered and hold my hand, hold my boyfriend's hand in the street.

The Chill Therapist (Krisztina Fovenyi): 27:49

I just want to hold my own hand. I can buy myself flowers. Okay, miley Cyrus, pop off.

Joey: 27:54

If you were to meet me in the street, you would meet someone completely different and I and I don't mean that in like a I'm a false person I find that as like a mask, like you said, like it doesn't mean, like I'm not who I am, like this is like, obviously, an extension of who I am. And like you know, I feel like I'm gonna use an example but, being a spin instructor, you're, you show up as this, you know, motivator, and this person that, like can fill a room and you have a big personality and you know, like you're always showing up for other people and like I don't know, yeah, I feel like that also plays a part in like who I am today, but also in the sense I'm saying I have a question here.

Joey: 28:42

Does that make sense what I was saying? It does, but it like am I just like beating around the bush with it?

The Chill Therapist (Krisztina Fovenyi): 28:47

No, no, it's making sense and I think it's your mind is calling you to something in what you're saying, right? So you're you're saying if you meet me on the street in a setting where nobody has expectation of joey and who joey is you're gonna find someone different than if we flew you back to said continent where you grew up, right? So I think what makes me curious about hearing that is what gives you more permission to be you in a setting where there's no expectation of you.

Joey: 29:25

Can you please repeat the question?

The Chill Therapist (Krisztina Fovenyi): 29:26

Can I call a friend? So if we met you on this you're saying, like if somebody random met you, right, you're going to be a different you. Right, you're gonna, you're gonna be a different you. And it's not because you're inauthentic, but it's because you do still at times mask parts of self. And so I'm curious, I think, what gives you more permission to be that version of you in a setting where no one knows you? So there's like no expectation. What makes that feel safer for you to embrace and like align with that version of joey?

Joey: 30:04

I think truly it comes down to generational people and also if they're queer or not like, truly like when I host this podcast and when I talk to queer people about you know their journeys and like talk to them about situations or theoretical situations or whatever that might be, it's a form of me also relating to what they're going through most of the time and I think it's a form of validation for myself. Selfishly, but I think that the people that see and hear the real me are the people that I'm absolutely completely comfortable around yeah.

Joey: 30:58

I think it's more so who I'm comfortable around. Get to see the real me. You know what I mean.

The Chill Therapist (Krisztina Fovenyi): 31:04

I mean, I don't know like you want to put this in or not, so I'll just keep talking and you can choose. Like is, are there family members so we think about? Like somebody who, like you, feel safe enough to be you around? Like I feel very, very safe with my mom in 99% of ways, but there's like that one percent of me that, like you know, when it comes to sexuality maybe I'm not gonna share right. So like, are there family members that you have where you're very close with them and very safe with them, but you still feel like you're masking?

The Chill Therapist (Krisztina Fovenyi): 31:38

like I I don't talk to my family about anything gay related really okay, and so I think that point is really important, right where it's like you're saying you know there's there's some people that you have that safety around and that that safety it's not just safety in general, like I'm sure you feel very, very safe with your family members when it comes to holding you when you're down and like processing your emotions on a bad day and, um, you know, supporting you through hard things, but when it comes to this it's it seems like you know.

The Chill Therapist (Krisztina Fovenyi): 32:13

When I ask you what gives you more permission to be yourself on the street with strangers than maybe with people who've known you your whole life. Right, it has less to do with where you are and more to do with who's going to trigger or poke that shame on the inside versus who's going to like heal it or like embrace it, right.

The Chill Therapist (Krisztina Fovenyi): 32:37

So Helga yeah, who is going to trigger Helga versus who's going to embrace her? Right, so that it's totally subconscious, like it's not, like you're actively thinking, like I'm going to so-and-so's house, they will embrace my shame. Therefore, I will be myself.

The Chill Therapist (Krisztina Fovenyi): 32:56

Right, it's not an active conscious process this is all just happening within you, right where you. Your brain is kind of doing this work, in the back burner where they're. The way you operate, the way you enact, the way you move around in the world becomes related to either avoiding people triggering the shame or finding safety to be able to like, embrace it and hold, hold it.

The Chill Therapist (Krisztina Fovenyi): 33:25

Essentially, yeah I I don't disagree with that he looks sad I, I feel like viewers or sorry, uh, listeners, joey Joey looks sad tell us, this is this is why we don't have a video feed.

Joey: 33:39

Um, I feel like I just want to like this is this is where I need you to diagnose me, or whatever. Like, when I talk about this is I. I want to like first, just like jump in and say like I don't feel not accepted by my family at all, like I don't feel that my family, you know, are like oh my god, he's queer. Like you know, my younger brother is also gay.

Joey: 34:04

So, for context, like and so y'all got a fruity family for me, on the other hand, like my partner was very accepted in my family, like you know, it's very honestly I'm very comfortable with him being there.

The Chill Therapist (Krisztina Fovenyi): 34:18

It's not a reflection of your family, is what you're saying?

Joey: 34:20

100%. Yeah, I feel like that's. I want to like make sure that that like is like known, because.

The Chill Therapist (Krisztina Fovenyi): 34:25

I don't want to. Yeah, hey, joey's mom, hi, he feels accepted by you.

Joey: 34:29

Literally.

The Chill Therapist (Krisztina Fovenyi): 34:37

She's going to be listening to this on the way to work and she'll be like panicking. I want to label that, though. So it's not a reflection of the people around you when you don't feel safe or you don't feel empowered to be that authentic you. We're not saying they make it unsafe. We're not saying, um, that they don't embrace you, right. It's more of a reflection of the um, the risk that you associate and like the more you care about people, the higher the risk is. So, of course, if we met you on the street with random people, they're gonna meet a different version of you, because you have less to lose if they are a stranger subscribe to the shame that you carry.

The Chill Therapist (Krisztina Fovenyi): 35:19

If they poke it. You're like I don't give a fuck because I don't, I'm never going to see you again. Right so it's not a reflection of how your family's handled your sexuality at all. It's a reflection of how painful it would be for you If you felt that shame triggered around them at any point, so you likely minimize the exposure or the opportunities for them to reject that part of you or like poke that shame.

Joey: 35:49

yes, yes mommy processing yes brain, mommy um, I asked for exposure in certain areas of my life because I wanted to understand them better in a way where myself and listeners can educate themselves on, potentially, how they're feeling. Because, truthfully, between me, you and the listening um, the most successful episode on the podcast is the internalized homophobia one and I found there was a lot of feedback from that episode. Um, and listening to my guests come on and talk about kind of like the same kind of like troubleshooting and like the same kind of like experiences that it's. It's not singular, it's very much there and everyone's aware of it, but no one's really identifying it and they just kind of like closet.

The Chill Therapist (Krisztina Fovenyi): 36:51

The internalized homophobia yeah, and like hearing you chat about that. I'm guessing like the questions I'm asking you might also be relatable then to your audience that listens, right? So you know, you and I've been chatting for like an hour now. So I'm curious for you, like, are you surprised by the amount of maybe like emotion that exists for you in certain places? Are you surprised by maybe like the parts of self that not that you've neglected them or abandoned them, but are you surprised by the parts of self that maybe, like, you don't know as deeply as you thought you knew? How are you like left feeling, because obviously we're like scraping the surface here, right, like therapy is usually one hour, like weekly for many, many years, right? So, um, I'm just curious how you're left feeling or what your kind of like um observations of yourself are after that the number one take home for me is this shame piece it's helga who we identified as helga helga, you're coming home with me yeah, she's got the.

Joey: 38:05

She's got the swedish like buns and everything, and she's gonna go dude, she has braids. She's gonna start like massaging me tonight and be like you know, she's got the monobrow like calluses on her hand and the monobrow and she's like ah not tonight, please no um.

The Chill Therapist (Krisztina Fovenyi): 38:22

I find that identifying the shame piece is triggering I know I'm gonna pause you there not to challenge you on the word, but like, like I'm sitting here with you, I can tell that you were activated at that point like what did it?

Joey: 38:40

feel like for you to hold that when we touched it I just found that it wasn't like a piece that or like uh, I didn't realize that was that I was associating with like and it was associating gay with wrong, when I was like, prior to coming out, or even today, today, even today, like there are, like, like I said to you, like people like sure, like they'll be, like oh, he's gay, him, or like you know, like they'll have their own opinions and that's fine. But I don't walk over and I'm not like my flamboyant, like you know, queer, comedic, comfortable self around. I have to identify like like-minded people like myself to be this person.

The Chill Therapist (Krisztina Fovenyi): 39:25

So I find that you're curious about the depth of the shame yeah, and I think that shame piece is holding me back.

Joey: 39:35

I think, like in more than one way, I think, even in my query, like the queer community and like other pieces of me, like I feel like, you know, like going to like a gay bar and like you know, not looking too gay or, you know, turning people off, I'm very much aware of like this internalized homophobia that like sure is getting better and I'm comfortable with who I am today but, like I said, like going to a gay bar and like just not being super comfortable with I don't want to feel like I'm like insecure because I'm I'm, I feel like I'm securing myself that's the parts right so like a part of you is secure and celebrates and embraces, while a part of you has experienced, like, heartbreak and pain around the sexuality piece right.

The Chill Therapist (Krisztina Fovenyi): 40:22

So it's like I. I like hearing you acknowledge the shame in a way, because it's like the human piece right like regardless of if you're bi or straight or queer, like however you identify that that piece is so human, right where it's like, even though there's a part of you that is like 30 and a gay man in Vancouver and you want to lean into that, there's also a part of you that carries a shame and it like sounds like today. Maybe you've realized how much that maybe bleeds into how you act in the world around you just like non-verbally nods his non-verbals right now, like he's I'm ready for a nap

Joey: 41:09

he's curled up, I'm like I'm like closed off body energy.

The Chill Therapist (Krisztina Fovenyi): 41:13

This is though, like when people leave therapy after a session where you've done a lot of what we call integrating, so you're like picture a million pieces of you in the world and we've maybe like grabbed 20 of them and pulled them in closer to like hold them and understand them. This is the integration. Like you're tired, You're probably going to pass out after this and you might even wake up feeling like emotionally hung over tomorrow.

Joey: 41:39

Where you're like I can already feel it. I can already feel like I feel heavy. I feel that like I don't know, I just feel like yeah, like like that hangover piece, like I feel, like tomorrow my partner's like are you okay? Like you're being, like you're not for a ball, I'm like just dead and I'm gonna be like don't touch me um, it's like you've been curled up in that ball for seven hours. Yeah, he's like what's wrong with your spine um? That'll be 147 dollars hold on hold, on hold on.

The Chill Therapist (Krisztina Fovenyi): 42:08

People pay to feel this way but okay, but this is the thing. So, like, how you're feeling right now is like this is a gross analogy, but it's like a pimple, like you. Like you have a pimple, you see the white head and you pop it and it gets like red and angry and inflamed and you're like, fuck, why did I do that? Like I made it worse. And then, like the next day, you're like, oh, like it kind of went away and it's less aggravated and it doesn't feel as uncomfortable, right?

The Chill Therapist (Krisztina Fovenyi): 42:36

so this is obviously the. What we did today is intensive emotional and mental integration. Right, we're picking up parts of you that you have maybe at some points left behind or have been left behind by others, and we're just grabbing them and like popping them into the fucking van and we're driving with them, right, so like, the white man get in.

Joey: 42:59

I have candy I I would have I know, I know, baby I know I would have got in.

The Chill Therapist (Krisztina Fovenyi): 43:04

I love sugar he's influential influential, easily influenced. All that to say. The shame piece is human right, like, regardless of who we're talking to. That emotion is so deep and so difficult to process that we choose not to right, we avoid it or we pretend to be straight to avoid it right. So we will jump through a lot of hoops to avoid the shame is all I'm trying to say.

The Chill Therapist (Krisztina Fovenyi): 43:30

And when we hold it, it is activating, it is difficult, it is uncomfortable, and so what I kind of want to normalize for you and for anyone who's listening who might have also felt like activated or triggered by what we chatted about, is that that part of you is not haunting you, that part of you is not trying to hold you back.

The Chill Therapist (Krisztina Fovenyi): 43:56

It simply just still needs you to understand it in a way that you haven't been able to right, which is why it keeps showing up. And so, like today, for an hour we held it, and like, of course, it's not sustainable to do, to engage in these types of conversations all day, every day, like it's heavy and you feel the impact, and I see the impact on you. You've melted into the brick walls of your gas town loft and so all that to say is that we like for tonight, you can put this part of you back on the shelf and you're not abandoning it, you're not leaving it behind. It probably feels very grateful that I got space and, even though that might have been uncomfortable and like emotional at times, you don't have to do this type of work in the matter of like one podcast, right? So this is work that spans over like months and years for it to be honored in the way that it deserves.

Joey: 44:57

I wanted to thank yourself for coming on the podcast sharing your insight and your professional opinion and just talking through the very surface level Internal isomophobia I can't remember those other really big words you used.

The Chill Therapist (Krisztina Fovenyi): 45:17

Compulsory heteronormativity.

Joey: 45:23

Compat really big words. You used compulsory heteronormativity compet. I appreciate your time and you being here and kind of explaining, and more so, uh, the why as to you know why I feel this way and you know why listeners may feel this way or if they're having trouble with like troubleshooting, or you know their everyday lives. I feel like this is like a very general topic. Um, it's not so personalized, even though I get personalized situations.

The Chill Therapist (Krisztina Fovenyi): 45:54

It's more so it's still very relatable.

The Chill Therapist (Krisztina Fovenyi): 45:58

I know these are topics you guys have been discussing for the last few episodes of the podcast and I think today it was nice to be able to give space to just label more of the specific parts of self that help us understand and make sense of these experiences overall.

The Chill Therapist (Krisztina Fovenyi): 46:21

That help us understand and make sense of these experiences overall and I know that that was you did share your stories and that was kind of more personal to you but I'm hopeful that your listeners can relate to that piece around us. Just naming, slowing down and even just naming emotions that live in the spaces of these discussions as a therapist, I think I believe are very, very important to being able to fully understand what it is you're holding and not just understand but also move forward from right, like you're not going to be able to work past these things if you don't know the emotions that live there. And I also want to extend gratitude to you for holding space for yourself right and visiting parts of self that are scary for you or intimidating for you or even unsafe for you for you to slow down and go there today. I'm also very grateful for that energy from you too.

Joey: 47:20

Thank you. Yeah, I feel, um, I feel there's a, there's a, there's a journey here. It's definitely a healing journey and, um, it's one that I'm definitely accepting of, like you know, clinical help and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, you know, professionalism around. I'm not against it, obviously. This is the fact. The fact that this is my first ever therapy session is might come like to a shock to some people, but I think I'm not. I'm not against therapy.

Joey: 47:53

It's just, you know the barriers that we face potentially with therapy, like would it be like funding or finding the right therapist. These are all like really important, um, keys to making sure that you can unlock basically your potential, I guess, or like understand yourself the best with the people that you feel comfortable around. So, um, yeah, like I appreciate your time and like you coming here and like definitely know that, like, the questions that you asked were like very like validating and they resonated well with me and I felt that, um, they brought feelings to the surface which I've known are always there, but, um, that why piece is such a key, important factor to help overcome uh in the future and understand better as to like my response. And, yeah, watch me on the street tomorrow holding my boyfriend's hand. You better watch out catch me outside.

The Chill Therapist (Krisztina Fovenyi): 49:01

How about that?

Joey: 49:02

how about that?

The Chill Therapist (Krisztina Fovenyi): 49:03

that would be very successful, like that would be great performance reviews for me as a therapist if in 50 minutes after one podcast, you your internalized homophobia was healed okay, so like.

Joey: 49:17

My question with that, though, is like, if I was to go outside tomorrow and hold my boyfriend's hand because we've had this conversation, is that a true representation of me, like acknowledging, like helga, or or is that just me being like too prideful and being like I don't want to box myself in this category, where I'm like this is this, you know, self homophobia, internalized homophobia that I want to like now cut. So, like I want to hold my boyfriend's hand to prove a point, like because I am very much that person, like very much like. Oh, you know, the chill therapist said that, like I have internalized homophobia. I don't want that anymore.

The Chill Therapist (Krisztina Fovenyi): 50:05

So I'm choosing by Helga and I'm going gonna hold my boyfriend's hand, no matter what people think. The chill therapist said we hate internalized homophobia, so we all hate internalized homophobia.

Joey: 50:12

Um the chill. Therapist said we're going to the club, so meet me at the club.

The Chill Therapist (Krisztina Fovenyi): 50:16

We all fans um, no, but like, even if you did it out of spite to your own shame, you are still doing the thing that is triggering for that shame, right?

The Chill Therapist (Krisztina Fovenyi): 50:29

So at this point, like it, the intention wouldn't even matter, whether you're doing it because you feel like it now feels safe or you're doing it because you have an ego and you want to prove something to yourself. Like it doesn't really matter. You're doing the thing that in the past, has been unsafe and inaccessible for you to do, and so, regardless of what would be prompting you to do it, you're exposing yourself to that thing and you're going to be building safety in it, right? So if tomorrow, you decide to hold your partner's hand on the street, even if it's just because you're the type of person that needs to prove a point, your nervous system's going to know what it feels like to acknowledge that there's shame there. Still choose to hold your partner's hand and for that to be okay and safe, and you will remember that, right. So the the intention doesn't even matter at this point that's gonna be me.

Joey: 51:31

That's gonna be me.

The Chill Therapist (Krisztina Fovenyi): 51:32

I'm like I'm gonna be driven to do it you're open to like excavating through like layers of self today and I'm appreciative of that and you're right it's. I know you're not opposed to therapy. There's barriers, right, like like you mentioned, like the financial commitment and finding the right therapist, and so if you're looking for no, I'm just kidding think, if people reach out and they feel like they align with me, I do what I can to um make space for those people, and so at the moment there's there's some, I'd say, like gaps in the schedule where people can can squeeze themselves in um, and you're right, picking the right therapist is really important. So, if I don't know, if anyone feels like they've aligned with what we chatted about today, they can um follow me on socials.

Joey: 52:22

I'm on tiktok, I'm on instagram, I'm on psychology today we really just scratched the surface on mental health and um specifically. Obviously this is catered towards me, so, um, but I hope that this helped. You know people that potentially are listening, that have felt a certain way or um have felt sorry, felt a certain way, or um have recognized it within themselves, like maybe these parts too. So you know, just listening is like like really educational for someone. Yeah, and honestly, if you're looking for a therapist, the Chill Therapist books apparently are open.

The Chill Therapist (Krisztina Fovenyi): 53:09

For the right person.

Joey: 53:11

Yeah, they are open and if not Psychology Today.

The Chill Therapist (Krisztina Fovenyi): 53:25

Has multiple other brain mommies and daddies and parents in general, brain brain teddies, brain parents oh yeah, oh, oh no, oh joey, no, that would not be good for thank you for listening.

Joey: 53:35

If you've got this far, um, remember new episodes. Go live every wednesday, remember I'm not gay but I am that's where you say you are.

The Chill Therapist (Krisztina Fovenyi): 53:46

I'm not gay you are all right that's right we are. You need to give me closure I think I've had enough closure.