Joey: 0:13

welcome back to. I'm not gay. You are with your host me. That's joey, and today we have callum on hi. I was gonna say this is where you say hi sorry thank you for being here. I'm really excited to get into the episode and first of all, his legal name is callum, but we should address him as tiny daddy, as we all know him. Let's get into a little bit about that. Tell us where Tiny Daddy came from, because that's actually formally how you were introduced to me.

Callum: 0:51

I think that was how I was formally introduced to a lot of people in the industry. Okay Was it? Yeah, it was it, sort of I want to say okay. So it became a thing with my best friend that I went to art school with. We were working on a project for me when it was our last year in university and just to have fun, I was so over it and ready to be done, I decided to like actually be the project. So it was a written project class, it was like an English writing class, but you had the whole term to write something and I did like a fake gallery curated thing and um, and then at the second part there was another portion of it where I did my.

Callum: 1:33

I put myself in drag and so it was this whole. Like you know, I was like 23 or whatever and most people like have this first go of, like wanting to be in drag for the first time, and I was like I might as well kill two birds with one stone and get an A on this project. So we my friend came over to my house, we got really basically, just like you know, did our normal thing. Then we do we hang out and drink two bottles of wine and smoke two packs of cigarettes and take a bunch of pictures. But when we were coming up with a nickname later, I think, for uh, like an Instagram post or something, how we tied it together with my social media.

Callum: 2:07

Um, she was like, we got onto this conversation about, um, uh uh, gay tribes, because it was a huge part of my, my written project, and I was explaining gay tribes to her partner and, like, going into details about like daddies and bears and all that stuff, and she was like, and details about like daddies and bears and you know all that stuff. And she was like he was like okay, well, what are you? Because you're like hairy but you're thin and like, if it's just based on body type, so he's like you're like a small daddy. And I was like, yeah, like a tiny daddy. And then that, just instantly, I was like, oh, my god, we thought it was the funniest thing ever. And then the next day it just became my Instagram, uh, which has since changed, unfortunately I know why I saw that recently it became one of those things like people either love it or hate it.

Callum: 2:50

Unfortunately, it's like like my boyfriend thinks it's kind of silly, but it's become so ubiquitous with how people identify me over the last like five, six years that I can't really escape it anymore.

Joey: 3:01

So I've kind of just embraced it like very purposeful and not where I thought it was going to go. I feel like now it's like oh, it kind of makes sense, and why isn't there a tiny daddy category as a tribe?

Callum: 3:12

It was just yeah, it was just kind of like a like. Of course a straight man would make the association of something like that, but the necklace that I have, the tiny dad, is from my friend who did the project with me.

Joey: 3:26

She like got it for my birthday, so it's just sort of.

Callum: 3:28

Yeah, it's sort of solidified itself. Well, welcome to the podcast.

Joey: 3:29

Tiny daddy, it's good to be here talk to me about when you first knew you were gay, like when you was it. Was it someone you watched on tv, was it?

Callum: 3:39

no, it was just I just real and natural, i't know. I just remember being a kid in like grade three, grade two, and like noticing boys in class and like not not knowing that like my proximity was something that adults were watching. Like I remember, like I always obviously you guys get along great with girls growing up and I have a lot of girlfriends but like I noticed teachers starting to like almost not separate me from the boys but like it just I got the sense that something was in the ether, like ether around me or something.

Joey: 4:15

Like they were talking about you. Like they were yeah.

Callum: 4:17

And I think part of that is because it was such a being gay in my household was so accepted. I have a gay uncle on my dad's side who is like my best friend in the family and there were a lot of signs growing up that I was gay, like dressing up in tutus and feather boas and like we have a great photo of me and like a hot pink tutu with a feather bow and a pink day hat and you know, it's just like there's all these little great gay kid iconic moments that we've captured. But, um, when I knew for sure was, I think, when we moved to northern california, um, in when I was in grade five, five, six, because we I had experience in bullying when I was young in school in school.

Callum: 5:03

Um, there was one bigger incident when I was in southern California still, where there was a group of kids who like kind of ganged up on me and like yanked me off the monkey bars and whatever. Um, so that was one of the only times it actually got pretty physical, but it ended quickly, thankfully, thankfully, um, but I noticed it a lot more because we moved to northern California. We moved to a much more conservative small town and the bullying increased like tenfold. So it was something that like from an early age always having parts of your personality pointed out to you by strangers and people that you don't know, in the form of questions or you know, know that sort of thing Like are you gay? You kind of don't really have a choice to not think about your sexuality, unfortunately. I have a question.

Joey: 5:51

Did you question your sexuality when these questions were being asked, or did you?

Callum: 5:54

just know I did or like did you try and fight? It, I did yeah, especially because it was like in grade six was when I first started getting like that first hormonal attraction to people, especially like I had the biggest crush on my best friend at the time and knew nothing would ever happen, and especially because they had such an extremely homophobic father.

Callum: 6:18

Do they know? Oh, they know and it's, and they had that friend of mine. They had a family who had a lot of kids. His mom had kids from separate marriages and they had a family who, um, they had a lot of kids. His mom had kids from separate marriages and he had two older gay brothers. It was very obvious the dad awfully accept them. One of them had hiv um and had actually, if I remember correctly, had us actually since passed um we've lost touch, me and my friend over the years just for me moving here. But I just remember going through that and like feeling so like excited about having a really close guy friend but confused about all of the like attraction and feelings that I was kind of building at the time right, while also going through so much hate from so many people at school that I tried to mask it by dating girls and having girlfriends so I was a bit of a player in middle school yeah, I mean test the waters like you know if, but when you know, you know, I guess yeah.

Callum: 7:22

I feel bad for the girls at some part, but at the same time I'm like none of those relationships lasted more than six months, because I was fucking 10, so like dead or dwelled, don't feel bad. No, it's funny and we're actually like remember when I did come out later, it was so obvious and so accepted and, um, I'm actually like, yeah, I had. I was really fortunate in that I've had um strong family to support me. My sister ended up coming out about five or six years after me.

Joey: 7:52

Okay, and she's older, love that.

Callum: 7:54

Yeah, so we have quite a gay little family.

Joey: 7:57

Any other siblings?

Callum: 7:58

My half sister, who's nine years older than me. On my mom's side. She has a different dad. Yeah, her and my other sister, my lesbian sister wow, okay, so and my gay uncle.

Callum: 8:12

We were all actually, uh, when my sister and I moved back home in my interim year between coming back here to finish school, my uncle and my sister and I were all living in the house and my mom was sitting at the dinner table with us. It was just the four of us and she's. It's really quiet and she's just chewing and she goes. When the fuck did I become the minority in my own home?

Joey: 8:31

my mom said the same thing this Christmas. When I went home, my younger brother's gay, yeah, and his partner was there and me and Catlin were there, and then my dad was at the table and my mom was there and she went wow, it's like it's more of a man's house now, but not many grandkids gonna be here I just remember the interaction between kids being so much more ruthless and like coming from california in a small town uh, there was a lot of shit circulating it was direct.

Joey: 9:04

It was very direct. They're direct like jabs they're not like you know, someone comments an emoji on a picture and you're like, oh, how do I interact? No how do I make of? What do I make of that emoji? Is it they mean this, or does it mean this? Or could it mean this?

Callum: 9:18

no, this would be like my teacher would leave the room to go grab a pen or something from next door and then some asshole would be like hey, callum, are you gay? And like ask in front of the whole class.

Joey: 9:26

And then we would start laughing and it's like that kind of shit. Yeah, that literally triggers me.

Callum: 9:30

I'm literally like yeah, let's call my therapist now it triggers me in a way where I'm like I, I see myself more as like a ghost adult in the room, and if I had the pleasure of just being able to actually smack a kid, I probably would, but like see like I want to turn around now. It's like jen is ian and be like you almost trust her god, there really is no better insult to somebody than to say nice wig to somebody who's not wearing a wig yeah, literally, literally, yeah, yeah yeah, but that's what I mean.

Callum: 10:00

We were saying this earlier, before we started this. But like having that that quick banter to shoot shit back at somebody who's giving sass to you, like I envy that in you so much, that like, because I wasn't like that as a kid, I would, I was a bit of a shot at an introvert and because when you're ganged up by so many people, it's hard to like really get a word and edgewise, unless you start to finally feel like you've got either support or even a crowd.

Joey: 10:23

I hate to say it, but when you're a kid, and it's that petty and the thing is as well is like you need like this sounds awful too, but you need, like the majority of the people on your side, so like you need to know that what you're saying is loud enough for everyone to hear, for them to laugh at, to be on your side enter my best friend, evan dean, who came in and was literally my like security guard.

Callum: 10:43

yeah, she would clap back at any guy who ever said anything, to the point where she actually made several boys cry and it was fantastic.

Joey: 10:52

Good.

Callum: 10:53

And the best part is, I didn't have to say anything. I just stood there and watched.

Joey: 10:56

My arms folded like a sassy little bitch. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I love that. Yeah, tell me about your first boyfriend when was that? Or your first boyfriend when was that? Or your first, your first boyfriend and then, like the first time, you kind of like started going on like dating apps and like, were you comfortable?

Callum: 11:12

like oh okay, so here's some tea. So when I came out, I came out at 13 um and back then that was a much well, I mean it was a bigger deal, even though I knew it shouldn't have been, because when I was in high school it was like Prop 8 was really big and Obama was running and the Defense Against the Marriage Act was like gay rights was everywhere. It was like all you really heard about in the five years leading up to that election.

Callum: 11:41

So there was a lot of conversation circulating, even amongst students that I grew up with, because we had a huge school. So by the time that I went through everything in middle school and bullying, it was like kind of about time that I was just fed up with it all. And when I finally started to stand up for myself I was like no, I can do this. So in high school there was a big club sign up day.

Callum: 12:01

It was a GSA and my sister caught me in line so she outed me to my mom technically wait club sign-up day club sign-up day was like all the different campus clubs um like choir club and you know whatever which one are you signing up for? The gay straight alliance gsa, gsa because you guys don't have this back home not england, maybe here, I don't know.

Callum: 12:20

I don't know it's so it's very common now in, uh, in the states. I don't know necessarily about Canada, I don't, because I just didn't go to school here. I know that I've heard people mention it but yeah, like the gay straight alliance was like it was basically just like a support group, like meeting group for young kids who identified as non-straight and it was like fully uh, non-disclosed. It was like I remember the teacher was an english teacher, she was very sweet, um, and it was mostly just like a room that, like kids could feel safe to just hang out and during breaks and stuff, right okay and like talk about their experiences.

Callum: 12:54

But I went and I actually it's funny I felt like walking in there was only five people sitting there um five people you're like and I'm pretty sure there may have only been one other queer person there, other than me wait what so it was like clearly them and their friends that started the group, which is great. I love that love. You know, support your buddies, but I remember leaving and being like I don't think I'm gonna get anything out of this instantly.

Callum: 13:26

The straight friends were like you and him are gonna fuck well, and then there was also like because when I came out, everybody knew me it was already such a huge deal I made.

Callum: 13:34

Going through the end of the bullying process was like very publicized on how it all ended. So when I finally took a stance for myself and came out, it was like I was the youngest person ever in my hometown to come out. Most people waited until after high school or their senior year, so it really spread around like a different conversation about I just tried to be really active on how to like prevent bullying on campuses and like worked with the administrations at both my middle school and my high school to like be tougher on bullying and it actually surprisingly worked. Like they did actually make a few changes, which was great, yeah, but it was. I mean to go back to your question. I know this seems kind of long, but when I came out, what ended up happening was people were asking me for advice a lot, because MySpace was just starting to be a thing and people were finding me online and from other towns like other like kids from different high schools were finding me and asking me about my experience, about your gay Jesus of California, I guess.

Callum: 14:40

I don't know but then you're young and I was 13 and I was like well, maybe I'll just be an advice columnist and I'm just going to. You know, I have a MySpace now and a blog, so maybe I can just do that.

Joey: 14:48

Little Miss Carrie Bradshaw.

Callum: 14:49

Cut to meeting my first boyfriend.

Joey: 14:52

Okay, he was. How old were you?

Callum: 14:55

I had just turned 14.

Joey: 14:57

Okay.

Callum: 14:57

He was 12, going on 13. Oh, he went to the same middle school as me and remembered me and me being terrible with names and faces. I just was like, okay, sure. And then basically what happened was he asked me about advice on how to come out to his family, um, and so I asked him. I was like, well, I was like I'll fully disclose. Like my family was very supportive and I didn't really have much of a fight, so I can't, like I can't fully give you advice, I can just try to be supportive for you.

Callum: 15:28

And then we actually became really good friends online and it became an ongoing kind of conversation over a few months about like how did you know, you know, have you ever been on? Like what have you seen online? Like you start asking more of those questions in a way that for me was also the first time that I had had a real one on one with somebody my own age, kind of struggling through all of that. That wasn't like a complete stranger from someplace else, but was actually like in my hometown, relatively close by. And then over a while we just we decided to meet up. We like walked and hung out at the school playground and it very quickly was like very, very infatuated love, um, and we had a lot of really great experiences. I think that when I look back to it, um, um, we're really special. We dated all throughout high school.

Joey: 16:21

Wow, you were together for how long.

Callum: 16:24

It was. I mean, we were on and off a couple times just for different reasons, but you know, you're young, but it was in total about six years.

Joey: 16:34

Wow, high school sweethearts.

Callum: 16:37

It was really great. He's a sweetheart and we're actually. We reconnected a couple years ago and he's with his partner out new york now and he's doing really well so, yeah, you're in an open relationship.

Joey: 16:48

Why do you think people get into open relationships over monogamy? Like what, what, like, okay, what is? Obviously you can only talk about your experience, like your reasoning but like yeah, talk to me about your reasoning like what? What does it? How does it benefit your relationship to be non-monogamous?

Callum: 17:07

well, yeah, I mean, this is exactly what you said. This is one of those topics that, like, you can really only base your experience on, unless you feel like there's enough of a reach from like my. My wider social network has been expanded now with my partner because he is a really solid group of gay friends and most of them are in open relationships for different reasons. Ultimately it boils down to the like the need for sexual contact and sexual experience right, but for us it was more so defined in that, like, our sexual roles are defined in our relationship. So he's a top and I'm a bottom, um, and I'm fine with that. We're both totally happy with that. But since him and my previous partner, um, I had like a, I went almost four years without dating anybody seriously, which was a huge period for me and definitely like dipped back into the dating pool, yeah, but tried to like switch the reversal those roles up from what they've always been and felt like you mean you being a bottom?

Callum: 18:11

like I wanted to try topping more and um actually like just cast myself into in a wider net of like sexual experiences. I was really struggling with sex in the previous relationship and it was a big issue for us, um that I think just having a period of experimentation and then going into a new relationship it does form a different um like set of expectations for yourself, even Um and me and my partner. Now we have such clear communication about what we want for ourselves and for each other that it was actually a pretty straightforward conversation about me saying that you know, I would like to be able to meet up and have friends and and like have more casual experiences with people where I can explore that, and it was a no-brainer for him. He was, like if that's what you want to do, then we would have to do this because, like there it wouldn't work any other way. You would the the sexual frustration does eventually catch up with you, right, if in the back of your mind, you're thinking that you're lacking something in your current relationship and us. It was a great opportunity because I was really looking to not have a heteronormative relationship like I have had in the past I think in all my previous last relationships it was always with this intention of like life partner working towards all the same things that straight people do and like really put a lot of pressure on myself that ends up bubbling into the relationship and onto the other person that I knew I didn't want to get involved in this time and like took the last four, like previous years to understand um, and it's been going great for us. I mean, I think, the time that we're living in now with obviously like prep and doxy and there's all these new programs out there that are great for men's health, but it does increase your chances so much more knowing that there are so many people in open relationships who are just completely on their own rules. So it's a little tricky navigating.

Callum: 20:20

In terms of like we don't have many rules in our relationship. We can pretty much have sex with whoever we want, whenever we want, as long as we're still prioritizing us number one. So like we don't have sex with more people in a week than we would with each other, unless it's just, you know, circumstantial or something Like. We wouldn't be upset about it. But if we haven't had contact with each other for weeks and we've both been other people, that would be problematic.

Callum: 20:50

He was really great at letting me set up what I thought the rules would be or ask me what I thought I would want when we first decided, because it was my first relationship. He wanted to give me that power and I told him I was like I think it's actually best for me as a first timer to not have many rules, because I know what would be key triggers in terms of like jealousy. Like if you meet somebody else and there's infatuation and then you fall in love and that's a different relationship forming. But if it's just about sex and we can keep sex non-jealous and separate from our relationship, then we have nothing to worry about.

Joey: 21:24

So do you worry that, going to the jealousy part part, do you worry that you will meet up with someone and like form feelings like, does that ever like cross?

Callum: 21:36

your mind it did. That was the. That was kind of. My big question to him was and again we've talked about this in the sense where this is really more of like I was coming from such a place of insecurity, um, within myself. But when I asked him you know my fear would be is that what if we do realize I'm not the right person?

Callum: 21:57

or we realize in you know, six months to a year or however long we're going to be together, that you know you end up meeting somebody that you have better chemistry with, or the sex is better, or you have a combination of all these things that you actually didn't realize you weren't having here, quite honestly, was like the pill I swallowed to clear my sense of jealousy in this situation, which is that, like things like that happen, whether you're in an open relationship or not, all the time right, people meet people, they fall in love. You know they get really, even if they don't fall in love or if they don't cheat necessarily, you can form a connection with people all the time, and if the whole point of being ethically non-monogamous is to allow your partner to have full support for any of the decisions that they want, then you can't. And again, this is maybe why I didn't have many rules on ours, but it's why you can't allow that pressure to bring you down, because it's really ultimately your choice how you feel about the situation, but you do have to follow like what feels right for you Right. So again, like this would not be the right approach for everybody.

Callum: 23:17

I think that most people do have very hard lined rules about either like time and place, like never, never in our bed, or those sorts of things. I just find that's where for us, I didn't want to set things up to be a problem later. Sometimes you have to. Sometimes it's just easier to host than it is to travel that sort of stuff. So I didn't want to get into the nitty-gritties, I just wanted us to make sure that we're still prioritizing ourselves first and we are good.

Joey: 23:46

Well, I'm glad it works for you. Right, like if that's what you decide, you and your partner need and want. See it as a healthy option. And that's it works for you, right, right like. I think the reason I wanted to kind of exploit it and talk about it today was more so just because I feel there's a huge stigma behind open relationships being too commonplace, or and also just like really gay forward, like why are they not, like I'm like monogamous, why is monogamy like uh, like a straight term, like you know what I mean?

Joey: 24:21

like why in the wire non-monogamous relationships more queer?

Callum: 24:26

based. See well, and that for me that's problematic because I think non-monogamy is, has always been there. It's really just religion and history that tried to tamp that down, I guess.

Joey: 24:37

So yeah, and I feel like, also like getting into it now, I feel like I see it more as like black and white, like a lot of people cheat and marriages end because they believe that they should be married by their 22 or they think it's the numbers on it are.

Callum: 24:51

I don't want to make up a random quote on a number here, but it does happen in a majority of relationships where there is one person who ends up stepping outside of the bounds of their relationship, right? So at least just having the acceptability of something happening. I mean, like I've watched really great relationships fail because cheating is just like a hard no and like, for me, that level of forgiveness is you're torturing yourself your whole life If I think, if you allow somebody else's actions to dictate where you're at with yourself, I just find that to be something that doesn't work for me. So it's best if we approach it as a partnership. But the support of what we want is, you know, ever expanding and it can change at any time, right? So, like, the only rule we set in place, for example, is that if at any point we want to take a break, then if one person wants to, then we will my last question, probably on this.

Joey: 25:52

I'm going to get into theoretical situations, but is your opinions on um non-monogamous relationships, being queer, focused and like the stereotypical social norms behind that being slut or like?

Callum: 26:15

Oh, I mean I'm not a slut shamer in any sense of the word. Okay, I mean especially in the last five years. I mean especially in the last five years, but I do think that again, I mean this is where the ethical non-monogamy thing comes in is that I'm not particularly one to just want to fucking leave. I do like having a connection with somebody. I like there to be a bit more passionate and a bit more longer sessions and all that kind of stuff. And if we can have a relationship where it's casual and it's like a bit more of a situationship, that's even better. Because for me and this is totally a personal thing, but like being an outsider in a city, even as long as I've been here I love meeting people and I love being somebody who's kind of a social butterfly between different groups.

Joey: 27:03

Right.

Callum: 27:04

So because it's such a small city that you bump into people all the time and I would rather be more comfortable knowing more people than shy away from it and keep everything locked away and private and separate. So, like I tend to be with people who are more than happy to have this, be more than one experience, and understand that, like my partner, where we're at and everything's great in terms of, like, the interpretation of it or the perception of non-monogamy as, like this identifier now within the queer community, I don't think it's necessarily something to back away from, but I do think or like to be ashamed of or I don't think there's anything wrong with it. I would actually encourage the opposite and say, like I guess the idea is that, like obviously you're for it. Yeah, I guess.

Joey: 27:53

Like that's obvious, that you, it works for you and, like you know, and obviously given the type of person, whether it works for them or not, how do you react? I guess in the response of more hetero normative people yeah, is that the right word?

Callum: 28:13

are you asking like what is their? How do I feel about their interpretation of correct?

Joey: 28:17

yeah, considering like it's, it's more so stereotypically it's.

Callum: 28:21

I guess that's why I'm struggling a little bit with the question because it does feel like it's. I have to go in with the impression of I'm assuming they're coming at it from a side that I can't really assume.

Joey: 28:32

Okay, I'm going to give you an example, a theoretical example.

Callum: 28:35

Okay.

Joey: 28:35

I'm a co-worker of yours. Mm-hmm. Female Mm-hmm. And you say oh yeah, yeah, I'm in a real open relationship. And then they go oh well, oh yeah, this has happened all the time. Well, why, and like how could you ever sleep with somebody else that's not your partner? Like, like, tell me your response.

Callum: 28:54

Like, let's play this out, okay. So I we've actually had I have had at least 20 female co-workers that we've worked with asked me this question.

Joey: 29:00

I don't want to say it's always women, because I don't want to say that, because I don't know.

Callum: 29:04

But I feel like women ask more about relationships than men do. That's why, honestly, I think it's I think it's the competition aspect of it. I don't feel in competition with other men. I think, in the same sense that a lot of straight women do with like each other.

Joey: 29:18

But do you worry, though, that your partner would find someone that potentially like that that competition aspect and was like oh, like but again, that's what I said earlier is that like that could happen, whether we're open or not?

Callum: 29:31

So I mean if, if we were in a close relationship and one of us was traveling all the time and I guess, so you know what I mean. Like there's, there's so many circumstances.

Joey: 29:39

Yeah.

Callum: 29:46

Straight people. There's so many circumstances that straight people experience all the time, and that's what I mean is it's like I think it's more detrimental to be that rigid. I think that the rigidity of the heteronormative aspect, of just being monogamous, is something that queer people have advantage of, because obviously societal pressures against us aren't forever, but it just allows us to be able to write our own rules and and define our relationships however we want, because I mean, especially from my experience being open, I've met so many different types of people I would never have normally met, and sharing those more intimate experiences before and after we sleep together, sometimes that you know I'll stay over. Sometimes we'll have breakfast in the morning or go for a coffee or whatever, or hang out and watch a movie. There's so many different ways that it's not just about sex.

Callum: 30:33

And it doesn't threaten the relationship at all.

Joey: 30:35

Yeah, it's connection.

Joey: 30:36

It's connection, and I think queer men really seek that out as a necessity more than straight people do in this theoretical situation, this person might see it as a threat because you might have a stronger connection with the person that you just met versus your partner that's at home and like, given the open relationship that allows and opens the floodgate for you to meet and potentially get a new connection with someone that is stronger and better, it's the fear, I think it's the fear aspect of like you might find someone better or more compatible with and the partner is allowing that to happen.

Callum: 31:20

So again, I mean that fear is in. Realistically, that's in any relationship. 100, yeah, you know, I just I guess I understand the perspective of like if you're open, you're increasing the chances of them having more distractions and more opportunity to find new love or whatever, and maybe that's true, but I guess the the reality is I don't want my partner to feel like they're ever trapped in a relationship and, after going through so many relationships in my life and some ended great and some ended horribly if somebody did actually meet somebody, if my partner met somebody they really wanted to like, leave me for yeah I think that that would be such a.

Callum: 32:07

It would obviously be a devastation, but I think there's a huge part of me now who would accept that, like that's a part of life and that is the risk of taking it if you're going to be open and like willingly entering into having those intimate moments with other people. But I can.

Callum: 32:25

I think it's still one of the most powerful things that you can experience, um to release that fear and release that jealousy right like well, you've had nights where we're both with people, and at the beginning it was a little harder for me to like sit there and imagine him with somebody else. I think that's ultimately what the hardest part is for most people, right?

Callum: 32:47

is like sense you know, like I know, that for him he's it means nothing, and like he's more the person that gets jealous of situations like professionally, or comparing yourself to somebody who's, like you know, excelling more in other areas. Sex and relationships is just not something that he gets jealous in for me. It took me a minute to get used to, but then the more I sat with it and the more I engaged in it, the easier it was for me to let go, because it's it's. You realize how silly it is, like I know he's not over there worrying about me or imagining me falling in love with somebody. I think that ultimately, if you really think that that's the biggest threat in the relationship, then and like that, it's bound to happen. It probably will. And I don't think the monogamy or non-monogamy aspect of it is necessarily the cincher. I think it's just maladies and a disconnection. So rather than so.

Callum: 33:41

That's why, for me, I'm like if it ends, it's probably for the best it's almost like an insecurity currently within you or the relationship and so, and like my partner, are more supportive of each other in other ways, like we don't put pressure on finances on each other and think of it necessarily even as like our money per se, because it's like we're independent people and we're here to support each other as independent people and become, be companions, be partners, be, you know, companionship for us, I think is is the biggest thing, that's what really gets you through life and your relationship, and if you don't have that, it's probably doomed from the start. Anyway, thanks for chatting with that.

Joey: 34:20

I feel that's a not so many have the same outlook as you and I and I and I really understand more after listening to what you said and like now, like the purpose of your open relationship and how it works for you and it might not work for others, you know, and I don't think it would work for me and my partner and I'm happy in a monogamy relationship, monogamous relationship with my partner, but if it works for you, I, you should be doing it. You know what I mean.

Callum: 34:52

Like I don't understand.

Joey: 34:53

Like there's no harm in trying something and I think this is again societal norms trap people, yeah, and they make people, you know, shy away from something because they're like, oh, that makes them a slut, because they're. They have a partner back home and they're sleeping with all these other people, or you know what's if they fall in love with their, their person having sex with or the person having breakfast with or isn't it crazy?

Callum: 35:17

I mean that what you're really saying is like we so many of our expectations that we have on relationships really are just what we're comparing to be other people's expectations for what they want, and I feel like that's so the last thing you need to be thinking about in your own relationship with your partner like you said before, again, a relationship is defined socially or like stereotypically, by religion.

Joey: 35:39

Like what is marriage? Marriage is like a union of partners coming together in the church in the church of god. Yeah right, like you know being married, and like I've had this conversation with my boyfriend, I'm like you know, if we ever get married, like what does that mean?

Callum: 35:55

like, are we?

Callum: 35:55

getting married nowadays just because we want to get married, because we feel like that's the right thing in the next step, well and see that I think is actually going to be something I was thinking about when I was on my way over here because I had a feeling we'd get on this on this topic. But I think if I had stayed in California, my approach would be my approach at least on the marriage thing would be different, because the health care system is different. There are, there are like very real legal reasons why I understand people in the queer community desperately want and need to be married. Um, we'd explain that I don't.

Callum: 36:29

I don't know what that is like if something were to happen to your partner and they're in a hospital. I mean, it wasn't that long ago that, like, unless you were their immediate kin, you wouldn't be able to have access to any decision making. You know, before marriage was legalized Like common law, protection for queer people in the US was not the same level of protection that it is here. I think that, like common law has been institutionalized a lot longer in Canada, like common law is has been institutionalized a lot longer in Canada, so there's less worry about those major circumstances that I think in the States. I would be a bit more um. I would understand why people are are are motivated to seek out marriage.

Joey: 37:05

Right, I think that for for the legal protection purposes.

Callum: 37:10

I would do it, but in terms of, like the big fucking thing and the-.

Joey: 37:15

And the dress you're going to wear.

Callum: 37:17

And the thank yous and the the gifts Fuck off. I don't want to do that. Like my partner and I joke about having a surprise wedding where we just tell people we're having a barbecue and you can't not come.

Joey: 37:28

Oh my God, I would love to go. You know what I mean and like. If I get an invitation from a barbecue at all anytime soon or in the future, you better know I'm dropping everything. Oh my god, it's the best. I'm going to show it with a rack of ribs and, like Knowing that it's a wedding, I'm going to be like oh, I got the ribs. Who's got the brisket?

Callum: 37:46

The reality of what I was still there, whereas now that I've been here as long as I have and I've experienced my relationships and I'm in the relationship I'm in now we've talked about what actually feels more aligned to the idea of marriage to us. If we were to try to define it, for us is a celebration of your life together. Were to try to define it for us is a celebration of your life together. So, rather than making a proposal that our life is going to be this way, why not celebrate that it already has been and it will continue to be this way? So, rather than getting married after knowing each other for six months or two years, like why not be together? And then, maybe 10 years later, you celebrate that you've been together for 10 years and, like you know, it's like a post-celebration of how real the testament of your love is, that way you're not constantly living up to this expectation that it has to be up here and if it doesn't, the marriage fails.

Callum: 38:51

That's the kind of trickle down issue that I have with monogamous relationships. For myself is that, more often than not, I've realized that one person's expectations are higher than the others, or people will feel like they're constantly going back and forth and not leveling with each other, and I find that or at least I found in this relationship it's easier for us to just be really open about everything and not hide how we're feeling or what we're going through. Um, granted, like we both don't want to hear the other person just whine and complain and bitch all the time, but like you know, that's a part of it that's just a part of it.

Callum: 39:33

That's a relationship, so you do it and you love them anyway yeah, but or you just drown them out while they're talking yeah, that too yeah, you know, I'm like just mute your phone while you're scrolling it's fine, yeah, um no, but I just think that it's you. The rules rules of engagement are totally definable and are allowed to change from relationship to relationship. Because you change from relationship to relationship.

Joey: 40:00

And also, as you grow older, you change. We're never the same person. We're always growing. We're always changing.

Callum: 40:06

This is why it's crazy to me.

Joey: 40:07

Societal norms are changing, everything is changing and we are adapting as humans.

Callum: 40:13

It's crazier to me to watch people who just consistently get remarried in their life, like you've had five or six marriages, like I don't think the wedding and the and and the aspect of being married is the thing that but they see it as purposeful like I know, we don't, and like neither did the four husbands that she had, or or they had. I'm sure she sees it as a purposeful. She's getting fucking alimony from all of them.

Joey: 40:40

I just I think it's just become something that. And going back to my original statement, obviously marriage is stemmed from religion and I don't know whether I see myself like stood in a church, like for someone reading like a script from, like a bible or whatever, or whatever they do, and they're, like you know, versus john chapter.

Callum: 41:05

Oh my god, have you ever been to like a really religious wedding? No, my cousins. I love my cousins. They're so sweet, but but on my mom's side we're Jewish and they're born-again Christian.

Joey: 41:18

They're born-again Christian. Yeah so what does that mean?

Callum: 41:21

They're like super Christian.

Joey: 41:22

But they're Jewish.

Callum: 41:25

Culturally our background is like Hasidic Jew. It's like our heritage. We have a group of people in our family that's extended who look and sound so Jewish but their faith is so Christian and I love them. They have like hearts of gold. I mean they've really taken all of the beautiful aspects of religion and applied it. But I just remember their wedding was like so heavy, heavy in scripture that like, if you do like it was like the game Punch Buggy, when you see like a Volkswagen beetle and you like punch somebody and you're doing a road trip or something.

Callum: 41:58

I felt like I wanted to do that every time they said Jesus.

Joey: 42:01

Yeah, or take a shot. Yeah, exactly I would have wasted and then kicked out.

Callum: 42:05

But um, it's just funny, like I don't know. Like their rules work for them and that's great, but like I, just the thought of getting trapped in all that lifestyle it seems like a trap. I don't have time for it. No.

Joey: 42:20

Too busy. I think that's all I have on open relationships. Great, but no, seriously. Thank you for sharing. Yeah, because I know it can feel like targeted and like I don't. It doesn't want.

Callum: 42:34

I don't want to come across that way, no if anything, I I would never interpret it that way. I mean, I'm so open about relationships, not, you know, just as a conversation. So for me it's like, if anything anybody listening to this here's this and has thought about it, and even if it's just like in the back of your mind and you're in a relationship and you love this person, but something doesn't feel right, or you you feel like, not just like you're having a wandering eye and those sorts of things, those are different signs of different problems in a relationship that are specific to that. This is, I think, the most number one reason why people go into it is because they know that there are larger experiences that extend outside of their relationship that their relationship can't fulfill. That it's, yeah, they, they know that it can't fulfill and it's not detrimental to ruining the relationship to explore those, those experiences.

Joey: 43:27

It actually enhances them and if it was detrimental, you need to look at other options, like potentially like leaving the relationship and pursuing something else, or looking for something else.

Callum: 43:37

Right, yeah and like again define your own rules, guys, like for us. The only other rule that we have it's not really a rule, it's just a preference is like we don't really play together because my partner is not really into group play.

Callum: 43:50

Right into group play, right? Um, I am, but I don't experience those situations all the time for risk purposes and whatever. And I want to make sure that, again, like it's with people that I've either encountered something with or and I can I know that the connection is going to be there, because who wants to go into a fucking, you know, group situation and somebody's stressed and can't figure it out? So yeah you.

Callum: 44:13

That's what I mean.

Callum: 44:14

Like you go through these things and you test, try stuff, and you can do that in a way that you could do when you're single, sure, but if you have the support of a partner who, like mine, you can talk about those experiences with after and in group settings and like we're very open with who we've slept with, since we've been together with our friends and our friends are like that with us, it just you realize how quickly these walls fall, fall down and like it becomes this other thing that yes, at the beginning some phases for some people you can get caught up in it and then push it a little too much.

Callum: 44:46

But that's where you set those rules at your own pace, you can figure it out and then you can find what makes you uncomfortable and not uncomfortable. So if you find out in the end that it's actually not what you want and you are too jealous or you are too stressed out thinking about them spending too much time with other people, you've got to reevaluate things in the relationship. So for me it's like it actually presents the opportunity for us to check in with each other more, where I think other people just let resentments build and build and build and before, and you've already destroyed the relationship before you haven't even had the chance to recognize it yeah, so I have a theoretical situation.

Joey: 45:23

are you ready for this one? And I'm curious on your response now. But just because, stemming from your situation, so you're in an open relationship and then your ex is single, but they fly into town, you see them on social media and this ex we're going to talk about like your personal ex, because my high school partner and I have actually already talked about doing that.

Callum: 45:50

Okay, since we've reconnected, we've definitely shared some pics and had some kinky times, and he's invited me to new york. Oh no, we know what happened. We had fantastic sex when we were younger, yeah you know.

Joey: 46:01

You also know each other's bodies and stuff, but so there's no limitation there to your partner your partner's not gonna be like uh, you're gonna go fuck your ex that you were in love with for seven years, or see, that's what's funny, I guess, I see me inside screaming.

Callum: 46:18

I see how that presents is like extremely problematic and threatening to the relationship. If you were to allow your partner to go and sleep with their ex in any other situation it would be a huge red flag. But like the reality is, at least for this situation, me and my ex are both in committed non-monogamous or ethical non-monogamous relationships, so for us to be able to go and experience this together, who knows what could happen. Like I flew back out to san francisco a couple years ago to for sf pride and he was no longer living in san francisco because him and his partner moved to new york. They moved to it.

Callum: 46:53

Well, actually they living in san francisco because him and his partner moved to new york. They moved to it. Well, actually they moved from san francisco to miami and bought a house in miami and then moved from miami and now live in brooklyn and his partner owns a place in sf and miami.

Joey: 47:04

So they're so he's rich.

Callum: 47:05

They're doing very well yeah I'm like he's not gonna leave his rich ass boyfriend for my broke ass because I'm still serving, so we don't have to worry about that.

Joey: 47:13

Serving more than just tables.

Callum: 47:15

Honey, he's got the 401k.

Joey: 47:19

He's got those good benefits.

Callum: 47:21

I have like 400 orders from McDonald's that you can access anytime. No, I just think that like that would be a really great, almost new experience of like reconnecting with somebody that I haven't seen after almost a decade now, who we had almost a decade strong relationship with, where we're both in different places and we've both accepted, you know, the faults of our past, like who that would be a. To me that sounds like a beautiful thing to re-experience, because who knows how awkward it would be or how instantaneously like it's right back where we were. But for me I don't think it would be like a. I don't think it's the the, the romance, fantasy of like getting sucked back into this great burning love that I had with. I think people watch too many movies to actually experience that that's me but you know what I mean.

Callum: 48:16

That's what I mean like people set these expectations up in these fantasies in their head and these, like they play things out, these play these narratives out in their mind about what could happen and you actually don't know.

Joey: 48:28

They also set an expectation that that's going to happen too. They're like, oh, we're like, we're gonna meet up and it's gonna be this, this, this, this, this, and it's not right, like that's. Another thing is that, like, they expect this rekindling and this like re-ignition of, like spark or something potentially like in your situation. If you were to hook up with your ex, your partner, okay, giving your situation, no, but, like in my situation, I would be like, um, my partner's gonna fucking have sex with his ex partner and then leave me. You know, like you, you create this narrative, like you said, in this expectation, and maybe that's wrong of us to do that and, yeah, I don't know I think part of it, too, is you set the experience you're gonna have.

Callum: 49:13

So if your expectations are too high and you're going into it, you're stressing and in the background you're behaving or acting on things that are floating around the back of your head that either you don't actually want to be doing or that, or vice versa, like I just I just think we have more fun as queer people and we don't have to put as many rules on ourselves. I'm like yeah, I just think we have more fun as queer people and we don't have to put as many rules on ourselves. And like, yeah, just live in the moment and figure it out. You know there's no harm in trying something and if you realize that it was horrible and you hated it like a bad grinder hookup, sometimes those expectations are really high too, and you meet them and you're like oh, yikes.

Callum: 49:52

Yeah, you're like oh, and I'm like yikes oh, I didn't realize, you're not you like I didn't realize you had yeah years I didn't realize we were still using our high school photos.

Joey: 50:05

I didn't realize that while I drove here um you, aged 20 years. Yeah, you know that's a scary place too, grinder.

Callum: 50:12

Sometimes, yeah, a grinder to me is like boring and a waste of time. Now, oh. But I don't use grinders really. I mean, I do, but not really. I use sniffies.

Joey: 50:25

Sniffies is.

Callum: 50:26

Sniffies. Yeah, it's more direct.

Joey: 50:28

What's that?

Callum: 50:29

Oh baby, I'm sorry, wake up and smell the rosebuds Apparently. Oh baby, I'm sorry.

Joey: 50:34

Wake up and smell the rosebuds Wait.

Callum: 50:38

Yeah, it's like an online platform, it's not an app base.

Joey: 50:41

You log in on like your internet provider, well that's why people don't know what it is, because you've got to go back in time. No, but you can do it on your phone. I just do it on my phone.

Callum: 50:49

I might work all the time fucking checking it out On Safari.

Joey: 50:56

It's so funny. It's basically it's table 90s trying to flag you down for a glass of water.

Callum: 50:59

Oh my god sniffies is literally like replace. Grinder is like the number one. Really. I got that, yeah, because it's way more direct, and the thing with grinder is that like I feel like grinder was it was like it was. I don't want to say it's my space of social media it's full of straight men.

Joey: 51:12

That's what it is.

Callum: 51:14

I've actually found that in a way, I find them. I see I'm finding more bi and anonymous men on Grindr looking for very specific things, whereas Sniffies is like either everybody in the city has migrated to it or is using multiple apps to find specific things that they're looking for. Sniffies is really universal. It's literally just like ass and dick pics floating around on a map and you can look on people and message them and there's like group access points. There's like little geocache hookup spots all over the city, like in the gyms and in the saunas and in the parks and whatever, so like you can find and locate people and kinks and where to experience them, basically any time of the day thanks for being here.

Joey: 51:58

It's been so great yeah, thanks for sharing your relationship status. Your view is just kind of like the dynamic of that, because I feel like I've learned a lot hey, I've learned a lot in doing it, so Well, as always, I appreciate your time and thanks for being here. You're always welcome back and remember I'm not gay, you are, I'm not gay.

Callum: 52:34

Want to suck a dick. Suck a dick, I don't care.