Joey: 0:14

welcome back to. I'm not gay. You are with your host, joey, that is me. And today we've got someone super special, paul.

Paul: 0:22

Hi, it's me, paul it's me, it's me, paul.

Joey: 0:26

Welcome to. I'm Not Gay, you Are. Thank you for having me, joey, I'm stoked, I'm super excited to talk about your life, your experiences, what you have to share with us today. Get into the nitty gritties, oh yeah all that juicy good stuff. Okay, so, paul, tell us a little bit about yourself. Um, you know how you ended up here today, um, and what kind of brought you to. I'm not gay, you are okay, um, hello, hello, um.

Paul: 0:56

My name is paul sansom. Um, I am from scotland originally. I grew up on the shetland islands there, um I was 18. Then I moved to the mainland, lived in Dundee, edinburgh, met myself a Canadian guy there and he took me over here and that's how I ended up in Vancouver.

Joey: 1:16

Nice Wait, tell us how you met your Canadian partner.

Paul: 1:19

Okay, so I was living in Edinburgh at the time and I was on a date with another guy actually and we went to this bar called the Street in Edinburgh. It's one of like three gay bars there. Shout out the Street.

Joey: 1:33

I might end up going there. You should yeah.

Paul: 1:36

There's the Street or there's CC Blooms or there's another one. The Gay Triangle is what it's called. It's this little like triangle.

Paul: 1:43

The three points, the three little points okay at least that's how it was when I was there. It could have changed, but anyway. So he was working there and I just ordered some wine from him and he had a cute little what I thought was a french accent, and so I was like I like your accent, like are you from france? And he was like oh no, actually it's a good guess, but I'm from quebec that's my impression of the french canadian yeah, so I was like oh, that's cool.

Paul: 2:10

So we chatted a little bit and I ordered a few drinks from him throughout the night, but I ended up getting very drunk and me and my date went to another bar and left and I forgot about elwa you know sad, but now look but now look exactly. Yeah, two weeks later we randomly met at a different, the other gay bar, cc Blooms. Okay, the end of the night I saw him there.

Joey: 2:31

He wasn't working.

Paul: 2:32

No, he had gone there after his shift.

Joey: 2:33

Okay.

Paul: 2:35

And so, yeah, I saw him there near the door while me and my friends were dancing and I wanted to get up the courage to go speak to him, but I just didn't. And then the lights came on as it closed and he was still there. So I was like, okay, now it's my chance. And I went over to him and I was like hey, and then he looked at me. He was speaking to someone else at the time, but he looked at me. I was like oh, hey, it's you or something I don't, I can't remember.

Paul: 2:57

He instantly recognized me and then we chatted. And we chatted outside the club for like two hours. There was a guy like sweeping cigarette butts around us as we were like making out. It was cutely awkward, um.

Joey: 3:11

And then, yeah, we've spoken every day since and been together arguably ever since oh, cute, okay, yeah, well, so sorry, tell me his name one more time elwa, because it's not's not, it's, not, it's. That sounds like a lot of pronunciation for me.

Paul: 3:26

Yeah, it's. You can just say Eloi, eloi, I often do, it's E-L-O-I, it's, think of it like the male version of Eloise E-L-O-Y, e-l-o-i.

Joey: 3:40

Oh, okay, eloi, Eloi Okay.

Paul: 3:43

Yeah, with an accent de U on the. E yeah. I heard the podcast. I knew you'd mentioned it was in the works.

Paul: 3:53

I knew it was happening and then I listened, after the third episode had come out, to all three episodes and I just really enjoyed it. I thought it was a really fun kind of um, easy listening. I enjoy, obviously, hearing about kind of queer topics. Um, it appeals to me for some weird reason Um, I'm gay, uh, uh and I just thought, I don't know, I I didn't think that there was anything specific that I could necessarily bring to it, but I just wanted to participate.

Paul: 4:27

Yeah, I wanted to be a part of it yeah, I wanted to be a part of it, I guess so that's fair, um, and you're here.

Joey: 4:32

Yeah, I'm here and you're a part of it exactly done and we've got lots of questions for you. Oh perfect yeah yeah, this is. This is where you understand your participation exactly I'm here. I'm a vessel um, well, we're happier here.

Joey: 4:47

Um, I'm happier here and I'm happy you reached out to me because I'm just I'm excited yeah I feel like everyone comes on and everyone has their own kind of like value that they add, um, and their own like experience, their journeys, um. So it's so nice to have a different guest every so often to just share and bring a different topic potentially with them. So, as we typically do, we know a little bit about you now, paul. So tell us about your early years, when you came to terms with who you are. You know, were you always gay from a young age or do you feel like you've matured into who you are today? Uh, more recently, um, is that you know because of your upbringing? Do you reckon that's because of who you are like?

Paul: 5:35

talking about your early years, yeah yo yeah, um yeah, my early years I I think it's one of those things like looking back. Obviously I'm like oh yeah, I was. I was gay. It was pretty obvious I had only female friends growing up. Um, I found guys and like boys in my school scary and intimidating. Not that that means you're gay, but it's it's a, you know. It's not a no, not a sign that you're gay yeah, I mean it could be an indicator, yeah so, um, but yeah, my parents are, um, very religious or very spiritual.

Paul: 6:25

I grew up Christian, going to church every every Sunday and so, sorry, just thinking, yeah, I grew up going to church and I just I was. I think I was in denial. I was in denial for my whole childhood and it was only when I was like 18 that I came out. Actually, no, I must have been 20. It was in 2018. So I was. I was 20 when I came out to my parents and my family and I think I came out to my first friend in 2017. Um, and it took moving to another continent to have the space from my family and from my life. I think that was what allowed me to kind of accept myself more in some ways.

Joey: 7:14

I feel that that resonates with me. I mean my story's different upbringing, wise and just like you know, religious views and everything. But where we're similar is I also moved here from england and I, when I moved here, I I called myself joey, like that was who I am, even though my legal name is joe, and every time I go back home I'm joe. My mom calls me joe, dad, you know everyone my boyfriend's always like, oh, who's this joe? You know um, and it's just one letter on my name. But it really identifies for me like the symbol is symbolism of like coming out and like who I can be here and comfortably I need to bring that person home with me now, but it was just a reinvention of myself and like who I wanted to be and I felt I could do that when I moved what age did you move here?

Joey: 8:01

uh, I moved in 2018 okay yeah, so he was here in 2018. Um, I'd come out to a couple friends back home um prior, but I hadn't come out to my parents or any anyone, just a just a couple of my close friends. So when I came here, I was like I don't have any, like you know, uh, I guess interlinking friends that are gonna like tell my secret back home and you know what gets posted online is kind of like monitored, so like no one's gonna find out, and I got to be who I wanted to be here, which is so crazy to say actually out loud. You know, like I got to be who I wanted to be in like a different environment, yeah, but yeah, so very similar aspect there.

Joey: 8:49

I just wanted to bring that to attention. Sorry, carry on.

Paul: 8:52

No, no, I totally, I totally get that, just getting that space. But yeah, so then I we were in Singapore at the time I was studying there for the course that I was doing Moved back home because I decided I didn't want to do that course and um, and then I was on the phone to my parents at one point and they were just saying that they felt like they were noticing a distance from me. In the last couple years I'd been very close to them growing up, more, more close to them growing up, and so I just like. Then it just like came out. I just started crying, I was like I don't like girls, they like guys, I'm gay.

Paul: 9:25

And there was just like I swear like a minute of silence. And then they started like they were like, oh, like, how do you know I don't. And then I just ended up hanging up on them and my sister phoned me a while later and then I ended up coming out to her the same night and I have a few siblings, so I came out to them all over the next couple weeks um, how did you feel afterwards?

Joey: 9:46

did you feel relieved, or was it like not immediately relief, it was more like I think it was ultimately a relief.

Paul: 9:51

There was a big emotional release, obviously, as I was telling my parents, and afterwards I kind of cried to my sister, for, you know, I feel like it was a few hours, maybe it was just half an hour, but, um, there was a lot of. I felt very scared. I think it's that vulnerability, you know, yeah, like worried that this would mean they you know they hadn't had the reaction that I wanted, but they had had a reaction I knew they would have. But obviously, you know it would have been nice to have like a oh cool, that's awesome. Yay, uh, cake and fireworks, yeah cake and fireworks.

Paul: 10:26

I would have loved that, but um you know, I didn't get that and, as I say, I wasn't expecting that and it wouldn't be true to them if they had given me that reaction. Um, but there's that moment of like, oh, you know what, if these stories that you hear about people who get like kicked out not that I was living with them at the time, but, like you know, are rejected from their family, but I ultimately knew deep down that that wasn't the case, like there's so much love in my family and from my parents.

Paul: 10:55

But I uh, yeah, those thoughts are in your head at that time, as you know, I'm sure totally, yeah it, yeah, it's that.

Joey: 11:02

Uh, it's that scary thought, you know, and and like, once you've said it, you can't withdraw it, it doesn't, you can't just come back from it, Right? And the questions that they have, and you know that, are you sure or how do you know? And there was, you can't really express that Like just know, right like I just like how do you know you're not attracted to women? Like, how do you explain that?

Paul: 11:28

yeah, like, um, I didn't just decide it, but there's been hey, there's just been years of inner turmoil and hating myself literally fighting this, and women don't have dicks yeah, exactly that's what I said.

Joey: 11:40

That's a big one prior to you coming out, you'd had, did you? You never mentioned? Did you have um any experiences with men prior?

Paul: 11:52

yeah, I I had. It's kind of interesting how like foggy a lot of those experiences are. I think I've like suppressed them or I know I've had a few before I came out, like in university, which I was in my second year. When I came out to them In my first year I had downloaded Grindr before I was even 18 and left the island that I grew up on, but there was no one there really, so I hadn't met up with anyone there, but I had no one's dads on Grindr that you recognize no.

Paul: 12:29

I don't, there was no one.

Joey: 12:31

I had I'm outing them.

Paul: 12:35

No, um, I feel like I had visited my sister in Edinburgh before I had moved there, and I had it then and I had I met up with a guy. At that point I must have been like maybe like 17 or maybe I was 18, but I like remember going out for like a walk, I told them, and I met up with this guy and I think he was like he must have been like his mid-30s. He was smoking something that I don't think was weed and I was too like shy and awkward to like say anything about it, and so we like did stuff, and I don't know how much time passed, but not enough you're like I gotta, I've gotta go.

Paul: 13:18

Yeah, I was like time for me to go, so um. I remember I um, I didn't know what to say because I just was like shit, it's been too long. I looked at my phone. I had tons of missed calls from my family because it had been like, you know, like an hour and a half or something that yeah for this walk, yeah and so I was like, oh, I need to go, I have a family. He was like what?

Joey: 13:38

you have a family you're like yeah, I'm married, two kids, literally while you're texting your mom. Be like the loch ness monster got me. That's what took me so long on my walk, literally.

Paul: 13:49

So I remember like running home, and they were like, what are you doing? Were you doing drugs? Like I didn't know anyone in the city. But I was like no, I just went for a walk, I'm sorry, and like uh, so awkward and weird. So, yeah, I'd had a few experiences and then in in university, when I was, I would get drunk and message people and go and do stuff, but very, very super in the closet.

Joey: 14:09

I had a girlfriend.

Paul: 14:12

Actually, in my first year of university, from when I left the island, she was on the island and then, or maybe it was from around Christmas time. Anyway, for a little bit, she came down to visit me. We, we did stuff when she came to visit me, um, we had sex, isn't?

Joey: 14:36

it funny how, like, just looking back on your life and like who you are today versus who you were then, like it's so, like it's not hard to talk about, but it's so awkward, yeah, like it's like you don't want to like, yeah, I, I'm in the same way. Yeah. I feel, like this is validating watching you. I resonate with it, but carry on. Sorry, no, no, don't apologize.

Paul: 15:00

Yeah, she came to visit and I think, like the whole time, like it was like oh, if I have a, you know if I get a girl because she was my first girlfriend and I was like my whole childhood. It's like if I get a girlfriend, then I'll know, I'm straight, that's what needs to happen. I just need to get a girlfriend.

Paul: 15:14

And then I got her as my girlfriend and I was like, okay, cool. And then I was still like, didn't feel 100% right. But I was like, okay, we just need to have sex and I'll prove to myself you might need to hold it closer, prove to myself that I, um, we, that I'm, that I'm straight or whatever, um, and she, yeah, she came to visit me for a weekend and I knew we were going to we didn't like explicitly say it, but I think I knew that we were going to both like have sex and you're scared yeah, yeah, it was really scary.

Paul: 15:48

and you know, interestingly, I actually went to the doctors and lied that I was struggling to have sex with my girlfriend and I couldn't get it up and she prescribed me Viagra. And that's why I wanted to get Viagra, so that I could have sex with my girlfriend, because I was like this will ensure that.

Joey: 16:12

I was able to get it up, so I remember Were you worried that you weren't going to be able to?

Paul: 16:15

Yeah, yeah, I was worried. I think like, yeah, I was worried about that because previously in like make out sessions or stuff, I was like why is nothing happening, like something should be happening here?

Joey: 16:27

and nothing had been.

Paul: 16:28

Yeah, and that stressed me out. So I was like up until this point I've been proven that nothing's really happened. So I remember from my brother's stag do um, we went to a like a strip club, um, and I got a lap dance and I remember being like yeah and being like nothing is happening. Why?

Paul: 16:48

you're like, like there, there are titties in my face, there's a gorgeous woman touching me with her body and I am very indifferent, anyway. So I went to the bathroom before we had sex, me and my girlfriend when she came to visit me and took a Viagra and obviously it didn't help because I didn't know that. But it turns out Viagra only helps if you are into it. It's not just like a magic pill well, actually, I actually didn't know that yeah, I didn't know that either.

Paul: 17:17

But yeah, you have to like, have a want. There has to be some sort of like attraction. It's not, doesn't just like mad, like you can't just be, like totally zoned out and it's like hard oh, I thought it was like.

Joey: 17:28

I thought it was like medically, like just push the blood flow into your penis.

Paul: 17:33

It does, it encourages it, but I think there has to be like. It's like stimulation, yeah, like, or there just has to like as in if there's no blood flow going there, then it's not going to do anything, but it's like if there's a bit of blood flow, then it'll be a lot of blood flow, you know, but there was no blood flow, I think. I don't know, I'm not a scientist but I think porn stars do use. They can do injections.

Joey: 17:54

Oh, okay.

Paul: 17:54

They can inject stuff, and that does make it more like they have no choice. It just is. I didn't know about that, I wasn't going to inject anything.

Joey: 18:04

That's irrelevant.

Paul: 18:05

I'm just on the topic of that Interesting. I didn't actually know that. Yeah, I've never used um viagra. I feel bad saying it because I'm like if she ever listened to this not that she would, but I mean she knows that I'm gay I don't think she would hold it against me that I tried yeah, no, I well, I hope not, and obviously I it's difficult to talk about, but I think what we do here is, like all for educational purposes and nothing should be off the table.

Joey: 18:35

You know, um, obviously with with your consent, but, um, we all do crazy stuff for the people that we think we love, or, um, you know, to prove who we might think we are to certain people right and like this just kind of goes to show that, like in this situation, you were willing to take medicine to, to prove, you know, to yourself, or to your partner, to your parents and like everybody else, like the social norm, that you were straight, even though that's not necessarily deep, deep depth down how you truly felt right, yeah, um, yeah, it's true it is.

Paul: 19:16

That is how deep in it I was, uh. But after that weekend, I think, that's when the bubble kind of popped and I was like, okay, I don't think I can really deny this anymore. And then it was later that summer that I told my first friend, and then yada, yada, yada, and then now I'm gay and I'm open about it. Um, but I'm still a young gay, I guess you know, yeah, lots to learn. I totally believe in the like the idea that, like you know, like you're kind of just like you know, like gay puberty or whatever, like I arguably by this I'm like I'm six years old in gay years.

Paul: 19:47

Okay, not really I don't know what that means, but I just feel like I'm still, I still feel like I'm very like you're still in your twink era yeah, I'm still like figuring out myself and like what all this means and getting to a point of like self-confidence, I guess, in and comfortability, you know, defeating all the like internalized homophobia self-internalized homophobia thanks for sharing that I appreciate you're very welcome, yeah um, you truly just don't know someone's story.

Joey: 20:16

You know just by looking at them. So, um, thanks for opening up and sharing that and, uh, in your journey with us, um following up, you know from your early years, um, I kind of navigate this question frequently, um, but do you believe being gay is something that's uh nurtured into us or do you feel like it's nature's way of of?

Paul: 20:39

like you were born this way. Definitely think it's a mix of both. Uh, I don't know yeah, um I, I heard a fact. I haven't looked up the studies myself, I guess, but the fact is that um, younger siblings are more likely to be gay. Um, yeah, so like, the more children someone has, the more likely that one of their children is that the child is going to be gay how many siblings do you have? I have six. Oh, I'm the youngest of six so there's five brothers and sisters.

Joey: 21:11

Yeah, okay yeah, yeah sorry, that was difficult for my brain.

Paul: 21:13

I was like, sorry, yeah, I think I said I'm the youngest of six. That makes sense. Yeah, um, so not that, that is not I'm using that as proof, but it's um, like, theoretically, the scientists believe that. Um, in terms of evolution, it's like the more people there are, the more people there are, the more people there are in your family, the more you maybe don't need someone who's going to like continue the genetic line, but you need someone who's going to be able to provide, like, care and provide you know other things.

Joey: 21:45

I never thought of that.

Paul: 21:46

That's at least one scientific explanation of this theory. Anyway, interesting as I say, I'm not not I haven't read the studies myself, I just remember hearing about it and thinking that that it, that it made sense, um, but I definitely think a lot of it is nurture as well. I grew up with three older sisters and two brothers who bullied me. I didn't love my brothers at a lot of times though I do now and my sisters would dress me up and they were big influences on me. I remember they had, particularly my older sisters, evelyn and Sarah. They had posters or cutouts from magazines of like sexy boys at the time, like I'm trying to remember, like early 2000s, uh, was like peter andre on the wall, yeah, like um who's like.

Paul: 22:38

Who's like legolas, who's legolas? Oh um, orlando bloom, orlando bloom I remember like a sexy orlando bloom, maybe like a johnny depp even, I don't know just these like sexy posters on the wall that they had.

Joey: 22:50

Yeah, yeah.

Paul: 22:52

They were like teen girls. They were, you know, older than me and I remember seeing them. I also remember being in love with most of their boyfriends, but again, it's like I didn't think of it at the time, but I remember just like loving them and they were very very, very like attractive mags.

Joey: 23:14

You know what like eight or nine or whatever, and when you're a kid. It's like you're so not subtle because you could, you're acting on what you don't know is like, and you're like, oh, play with me. Or like, hang out with me. And then they're like, leave my boyfriend alone, you little jerk. And you're like, oh no, um, I got a new toy. Come play with this. Or you know, and they're like oh, leave me alone, you little brat.

Paul: 23:33

Yeah, totally that, so funny so yeah, I guess you know I was surrounded by this environment and these people who I looked up to, my sisters. Mostly they were into guys, so I definitely think that could be a part of it. I had all girlfriends. A few of those girlfriends turned out to be queer or gay in their own way, but you know, at the time most of them were talking about like boys and stuff like that as well. So I don't know.

Paul: 23:59

I definitely think it's a mix of the two like I ultimately think that in an ideal and perfect world there wouldn't really be gender in the same way that we have it now and people would just fall in love with who they fall in love with. So I don't know if that would ever actually come to be, but I just mean theoretically like there's just people existing. Different people have different gender expression, how they look, they have different genitalia and they're into different things, but they wouldn't categorize themselves as like straight or gay or anything. It's just people are into, people that they're into. I think in my head that's the ideal world that we're headed towards. Whether we actually do, I don't think.

Joey: 24:40

I don't know, but like why do we need to identify as male or female? Yeah, like why, like you know or or anything else you know when we're born, why is it like we get one gender as like, male or female? Yeah right, like what's why? What's the purpose? Exactly it doesn't. And like when you're filling out your passport, why do I need to click male or female?

Paul: 25:01

yeah, I don't get it. I'm like why do you need to?

Joey: 25:04

know that, for me to board an airplane, yeah, like you've already got my fingerprints, my retina and my, my photo, my photo. What else do you need?

Paul: 25:11

And then you need me to be like oh, my gender, yeah it's dumb and it's like a lot of hoops to jump through, like if you know a trans person who's going through their journey, like to be able to change their identification, and stuff like that. It's like a long process and I don't know they might be at different stages of how they kind of are expressing themselves and I I know people who have like encountered issues when, like traveling and stuff, when they how they have looked hasn't matched what it says on or even how it looks on their id, but they haven't been able to change it. Oh no, it's tough, yeah, I think. Oh no it's dumb.

Joey: 25:48

It's dumb. We've become something so big and I feel like we've come so far as like a queer community and but no longer, I guess, like the interface of like the world. It's not really like lining up anymore. I feel like I don't want to get into politics. That's not what. That's really not what I want to talk about. I think you'd be good in politics.

Paul: 26:09

I don't, I don't know.

Joey: 26:17

I. That's really not what I want to talk about. I think you'd be good in politics. I don't. I don't know, I have too much to say, um, but I feel that the politicians we have and the leaders that we have don't align with queer community but I don't necessarily think that any of them are queer so they can't talk on behalf of a community that they don't align with.

Paul: 26:33

Yeah, right? No, I totally think so. Or there are queer ones, queer people and there's probably a lot of them that are in the closet and feel like if they come out as queer, that they would yeah, exactly.

Joey: 26:44

Anyways, yeah, no more politics, no more politics. This kind of points us into, I guess organically into my next questions for you. So, um, I want to address pronouns and how do we educate and how do we support the listeners um to feel comfortable to address someone without knowing their pronouns Like?

Paul: 27:13

is it.

Joey: 27:13

You know the immediate question like oh how, what are your pronouns? Or is that too harsh? Or, you know, do you just kind of go by gender society norms and you know they look like a man, so they are like, male, like he, him, or they look like a female. So they're she, her, male, like he, him, or they look like a female, so they're she, her, like.

Paul: 27:35

Tell me your kind of opinion on that and how we can educate the pod hmm, it's, it's interesting because I, I don't know that I feel like there's so many factors and so many different opinions. Like I, I myself use they, them pronouns for myself. That's how I self-identify if somebody was to ask me. But I've, I've never corrected someone, um, and most people do assume, especially like in the workplace, that I am like a he, him, that I'm a man, which again, it's fine. Like I, I identified as a man for most of my life, um, up until this point, it's not like an issue to me and I feel secure enough in myself that I I'm not really bothered by someone mis misgendering me and, as I say, like I don't really like fight for it, um, and I look how I look and that's okay. But also I feel like I don't know, I could, I could, I could stand up for it more, I guess. But yeah, like asking people, like there's definitely been spaces I'm in where I know I'm the only one who is genderqueer and they've like been like, oh yeah, we forgot to do pronouns, everyone do pronouns, and they're going around the circle and I'm like I know, or at least in my head, I'm like I know they're just saying this so that people get my pronouns, which is nice, but then also it's kind of like, you know, if I'm in a room full of he, she's like he hims or she hers, sorry, and I'm, you know, the only like say that I'm more different, differently pronoun person, that it it can feel like okay, like singled out, but you know, like, arguably not for like a bad reason. Um, I've started to a little bit more like correct people, like if they'll, or just like if I'll kind of like say the thing that they said, like they'll say, oh, yeah, he's so this, and then I'll be like, haha, they are so this. But like I don't think they usually notice, to be honest. I kind of say it very subtly but for me it doesn't really matter. I at this point don't really mind being misgendered, but for some people they really do, and so I can't be like, oh, this is, you know, just because it's okay for me doesn't mean it's okay for other people. Some people can feel really like it can really mess with them if people are not calling them the correct gender.

Paul: 30:06

Like, hypothetically, there's someone in your workplace and they look like they are gender queer and you can say for certain if they identified as maybe male, female non-binary gender queer in some way? Do you go up to them and ask their pronouns? I think you do. I think arguably, if you're uncertain, you can go up and ask them. Do you go up to them and ask their pronouns? I think you do. I think, arguably, if you're uncertain you can go up and ask them. But also again, that's like have you gone up and asked everyone else's pronouns? No Right.

Joey: 30:38

So that's the counter argument. Is that like where? Where do I don't want to, like you know, make that person feel like isolated you know, like like you were just saying, like going back to your story there where you said like the, you know, in a work setting, you feel like people have definitely gone around the room and just to say like, oh, let's everyone say their pronouns, just because they kind of need to know what your pronouns are yeah versus, you know, the heterosexual, uh, non-queer people in in the group.

Joey: 31:11

So I know it's not like a, it's not like a one word answer and it's not like a a linear line. Like you know, this really just depends on the person. But, like, as a society, if, if, how do we? You know, I feel like they're bringing in, like you know, more technology stuff. So, like you know, it worked.

Joey: 31:35

Like I, like in my full-time job, like I put my pronouns in my, in my bio, I go by he, him, but because I'm queer, I don't want people to be like, oh, what, what are your pronouns? I don't want them to ask that question. So I make it very clear, like what my pronouns are. People address me all the time that don't actually know me, so, like, I'd rather them address me how I identify, versus having that conversation prior being like you know, like what are your pronouns? How do you identify? Like it's a little invasive, right? So me personally, like I don't know, like how other people feel, but how do I, a queer person, identify another queer person that might have different pronouns to the, the society norm, right? Like we had this conversation off mic and I didn't know your pronouns, were they them? And I've worked with you for two years, mic, and I didn't know your pronouns. Were they them?

Paul: 32:28

and I've worked with you for two years, right, so I don't know whether I refer you to like as as he, him, maybe probably I'm gonna be honest, like yeah and also just so you know, like it's a journey over the like, I would say two years ago I wouldn't have identified as they them right um, so I think it's only like I only put they them as my pronouns on my instagram, like, maybe like a month ago not that I used instagram a ton, that wasn't like a big marker for me, but I was like, oh, I should do that was like your social stepping stone.

Joey: 32:59

Yeah, true that was like for you being like, okay, like people that don't know me now can see me on this platform and like if they are looking like I am they them, yeah, right, yeah, exactly that's true. When you show up to work and that's any job that you are working in, or you know current, previous, you know future.

Paul: 33:19

Um, what, how, how do I I don't know how to like word this- just say the say the words, say the wrong words and the right ones will come how do you present yourself?

Joey: 33:35

or okay, actually, no, I'm gonna rephrase one more time because I know what I want to say. Okay, when you work and you put on your uniform, you put on your persona, for whatever that might be if it's customer service or management or god knows whatever you're doing in the world right?

Joey: 33:51

yeah this is unique to any job in any role that you're doing, not specific to one. Um. Do you think on the society norms to avoid those questions from work and staff and like, also like customers, consumers, like whoever you're dealing with day in, day out, like just because you don't want to bring attention to it?

Paul: 34:24

yeah, I think there's so many factors like I've. I've identified as a man most of my life. Most of my clothes are, although kind of, maybe more on the like, flamboyant, colorful, gay side, they're mostly men's clothes.

Joey: 34:43

I I love your clothes Thanks.

Paul: 34:46

Yeah, I, yeah, I enjoy clothes so much and it changes day by day. Like, some days I put on my uniform, which is more masculine, or just you know, it's a male uniform and I feel good in it. And some days I put it on, I feel like it's not me. I feel good in it, and some days I put it on, I feel like it's not me. And then also sometimes when I look at myself and I'm maybe in a more gender-fluid outfit or a less binary outfit, then it's like I think I look good or I feel good, but also I'm just not used to dressing like that.

Paul: 35:27

I haven't got years of experience dressing in a for like a different body type or a different person than is like male and also, yeah, like I have a, a male body, and so like sometimes I try and shy, shy away from that and sometimes I lean into it.

Paul: 35:42

So it's just like. It's just very confusing, like every every day, like I don't know what I'm gonna feel like or look like. And then sometimes I like enjoy how I look, like some, like I've been going to the gym recently and I look a little bit more like muscly than I have previously not that muscly, but just like I'm like okay, cool, yeah, like I see my body and then it obviously that's, it's a more masculine presenting body, or at least what society has told me is masculine. Right then I'm. So I'm like oh, I look like this, like sometimes I wish I looked more like androgynous, but I have more comes to terms with like it's my body and that's okay, and my body is not a gender expression and me feeling good in my body and like working out and getting my body to a place I want it to be does not change how I identify.

Paul: 36:27

Like I could be this I could get super buff and be like a six foot three buff person, and that doesn't change my gender.

Joey: 36:36

I could still dress however I want and even though society says, you know, being muscular is more masculine yeah and being tall is more masculine, exactly, which is so fucked up.

Joey: 36:50

It's really fucked up. You know like it's like, oh, you're six, four, wow, you're such a bro. Yeah, like you know what I mean. Like you're like, oh you're sick. Like I don't know. Like height, you know. Or facial features, like a beard, right, like that's like more masculine. Is it really like I have a beard, I, I have my beard because it complements my haircut, or like my face shape, like, or just because I like it? I don't, I don't necessarily have it because I'm like, I'm one of the dudes yeah yeah, like no, thank you.

Paul: 37:20

I would clean, shave and get laser hair removal on my face if that was the case, like I don't want to be one of the dudes yeah, I just like to be me, yeah, and like, yeah, like it's it's a lot to keep up on top of like facial, you know, to like be like being shaven every day, like that's yeah like I don't, I don't put that much time or effort into it, so like I often end up with like a bit of a beard or stubble or you know, but like I don't always identify with that totally.

Joey: 37:45

Um, I also just want to like just talk really quickly on a couple points that you brought up. Um, I want to say that I love seeing you when we work together in your more professional um I guess like managerial work outfits, because you I saw more expression in who you are, because there's a little bit more freedom in, like the uniform yeah um.

Joey: 38:10

So I found that I really enjoyed seeing that paul come to work, because I saw like more personality and a little bit more depth rather than, like you said, more masculine tones of the other uniform that you would have to wear for your role, um, which is more like a universal for like all men. And then they have a female uniform and then there's the management uniform, which is still, I guess there's boundaries and, like you know, that you have to wear and it's still a uniform, it's universal as masculine and feminine. But there was, there is, lenient oh yeah, there's leniency.

Joey: 38:51

There's leniency in the more management uniform, like I feel like, yeah, you're allowed to wear color, you're allowed to like, yeah, or like, even like the types of clothes like the management where, like, it doesn't need to be like a form-fitted tight shirt or it doesn't need to be like a form fitted tight shirt or it doesn't need to be like you know, like there's more accessories, stuff that you can wear, like your shoes and stuff like can be a little bit more different.

Joey: 39:15

and I've noticed, just like when we're, when we're working, or when I used to work with you, um, that most people because the uniform as our other role is just as a server, I'm going to say it, you were a server, oh no, hospitality, I could never. I find that when we show up as servers, our uniform is it's come a long way, it's very progressive, not necessarily for, um, the male role, but the female role for sure, because when I started there eight years ago, they had to have like a uniform policy. Was you need to wear one piece of jewelry, you need to straighten your hair?

Joey: 40:02

damn you needed to have makeup on, like these were like a part of the uniform policy, like that was maybe it was like an unspoken rule.

Joey: 40:12

Maybe it wasn't like in the contract, but it was definitely like, oh, like, you want to serve in the lounge? Well, you can't, because you don't have breasts and you don't have makeup and your hair's not straight and you're not wearing those rings that you wear, those cute little rings and those necklaces that you always, you know, accessorize with, and those high heels. Yeah, like we've come a long way, for sure, and like seeing that, like people that identify as like men and like male figures in, like the lounge serving aspect now, and like the bar even. Like these weren't allowed back when, like you know, seven, eight years ago that that wasn't a thing, yeah, crazy no, it's, it's.

Paul: 40:53

It's true, it's nice to see how far it's come in that respect, but I definitely feel like the fact that we still have like a male uniform and a female uniform is I feel like it's crazy. But I guess I live in my own little bubble, you know, like I forget that most of the people that that, uh, we work with or that used to work with, like they are in like, yeah, I forget that there's a straight world and there's a gay world and I live in the gay world and but like so does like 85 of the servers that we work with live in the straight world no, live in the gay world.

Joey: 41:27

Yeah yeah, yeah, like like most of um the like, I guess, like male identifying servers at the location that we were at, were gay or bisexual yeah, well, we like yeah yeah, a lot of them.

Joey: 41:46

I wanted to share a story that was really quick. Um, talking about uniform, so this was about six years ago or five years ago, um, I was at a different location and the uniform used to be um a black tie, um a server um shirt, like a like a black dress shirt, black dress pants, black dress shoes, the server tie, which was black, and then you would get like the tie clip as a part of the uniform from cactus club with your like pouch.

Joey: 42:17

But it wasn't a little server pouch, a cute little one that the girls used to wear, because that was genderfied. It was a girl server pouch, a small one. There's a very long server um pouch. It's almost like. It's like almost looks like a kilt, like a small one. There's a very long server um pouch. It's almost like.

Joey: 42:28

It's like almost looks like a kilt, like a dress yeah it's very long past your knees right down and, depending how tall you are, like you could drag along the floor right like, and that was seen as like the male uniform. And at the time I was where a girl had come in for an interview and she'd said to management oh, like I don't feel comfortable wearing the female uniform, what's the other options you have? And she said you can wear the male uniform, but you have to wear every piece of it. So they wouldn't let her come in in her high heels with her dress pants, so she had to wear the dress, shoes that were more masculine or like you know, like non-platform, and then she had to wear like the full, like dress, like kind of skirt. Looking. I can't explain this. Yeah, like an apron.

Paul: 43:14

I'm butchering. Yeah, it's an apron.

Joey: 43:15

That's exactly what it is, but it was just so long. Yeah, it was very long. It wasn't like a short little like moment, like it was long Like on me as someone who's six foot it was probably just past my knees. Yeah, um, wild. So this girl that's like was shorter. I think she was like maybe like five, six. She was like I can't wear that, like it's gonna drag on the floor and they're like well, that's the only options we have. So I think we've come a long way, because now we don't have to wear like those long aprons, like we can wear like the the little pouch. Yeah, and this isn't like to isolate one company or like previous roles or current roles. This is just more so like bringing awareness to the workplace and like how do we bring more education and progression to gender norms and society? And, yeah, that makes sense right no, yeah, yeah totally okay.

Joey: 44:19

That brings us to the end of our episode today oh, kind of sad yeah, I feel like we had some great talking topics here and hopefully we provided some high education to the queer confused people absolutely uh, but more so, just uh. Yeah, like you know, this is like everyday kind of topics and things that we deal with every single day, and like experience and journeys from our lives that hopefully someone can learn from and maybe put towards their daily life or I hope so as well.

Paul: 44:51

I hope that people have maybe related somewhat to what we've said or yeah or maybe you'll get some nice angry engagement with people who strongly disagree, and that's fun too I doubt that no one disagrees with me. No, true, they can't Well thank you for being here. Thank you so much for having me.

Joey: 45:10

Absolutely. Thanks for sharing your journey, your stories and your experiences, and thanks for bringing and shedding a little bit of light on pronouns for us today, my pleasure. Thank you for listening to me rant about my life. I love how you call it a rant, but for me it's's like it's so eye-opening and it's so uh, it's so it's so vulnerable you know it is vulnerable, you know. But uh thanks for, uh thanks for sharing and we hope to have you back one day all right, fine, I'll come back.

Paul: 45:38

You live close to me. What's your excuse?

Joey: 45:41

weekly guest star. New episodes go live every wednesday. Thanks for tuning in and we hope to see you every wednesday. Right paul, right paul yeah yeah, remember, I'm not gay. You are bye, bye. Wait, this is about gay people.