Joey: 0:13

welcome back to another episode with I'm not gay. You are with myself, joey, your host, and today we have jackson hi how are you?

Jackson: 0:23

I'm doing so good, how are you?

Joey: 0:25

Good, I'm so glad you're here Me too, yeah, it's nice to have a different perspective and bring someone in and, you know, put them in the hot seat and ask them to answer all the questions. Nervous, I want to chat real quick and just let everyone know, so I'm going to bring it up. How do we know each other? I feel like we met at not a glory hole um, we met at the bathhouse.

Jackson: 0:55

No, just kidding, we actually met at work. We did yeah again.

Joey: 1:00

Um I, we worked together in a restaurant in vancouver, if you haven't gathered. Uh, hospitality is like I feel like a surviving grace here in vancouver and yeah, everyone does it literally um, but we did, we worked together um. I recently left to pursue the podcast um, and I did mention to jackson that I would love to have him as a guest and share his experiences and I was real gung-ho about coming on me straight away messaging you like, come to my house.

Joey: 1:28

Like, please, let me on please yeah, I'm happy you're here, um, and I'd love to get into with you. Let's do it.

Joey: 1:37

Let's talk early years okay so where are you from originally? Obviously I I know you've just you moved to Vancouver four years ago. Talk to me about early years of Jackson and how you kind of found and understood who you wanted to be and you know, do you feel like you were born gay or do you feel like you kind of came into your era Like what, who supported you and how did you come to terms with that?

Jackson: 2:08

Okay, like what. Who supported you and how did you come to terms with that? Um, okay, so I was born in edmonton and I feel like that in itself is like its own thing. Growing up in alberta, as, like a gay person was definitely not ideal, but I mean I made it work.

Joey: 2:22

I why do you think that, like what's for someone that's listening to this? It doesn't know what edmonton is, or?

Jackson: 2:29

it's a city.

Joey: 2:30

It's a city within a province right, but it's in the province of alberta. Oh yeah, yeah, and it's, and it's cold.

Jackson: 2:35

That's all, that's all I know it's cold, it's quite conservative, um like just socially, and yeah, there's just not a ton of progression yeah.

Jackson: 2:48

I mean, there's quite a bit of racial diversity, but in terms of diversity with sexual orientation and just people being different, there wasn't a lot of people that I could look up to or anybody who had a very similar experience to me. Um, but I I feel like I knew that I was gay from a very, very, very young age, like before I even knew what being gay was. I've always been attracted to boys, and the first boy I can remember being attracted to it's so vivid in my mind was at this girl's birthday party in preschool. So I was probably like five and one of the girls had brought their older brother and he had like this little rat tail and I just remember being like oh my god, the hairstyle.

Joey: 3:41

We have to say the rat tail, the hairstyle it just really did it for me.

Jackson: 3:45

And then we all sat down to watch a movie and he was sitting in front of me and I was like, wow, it's just really doing it for me trying to grab it trying to grab it fantasizing about it and yeah, and then ever since then I was just kind of like okay, that's, that's it for me. And then I guess, once I started learning what being gay was and that it wasn't necessarily quote unquote the right way to be, I started to suppress the feelings a little bit more.

Joey: 4:13

How did you? How do you feel like growing up in a conservative city? How did you get to the gay? Wasn't that you were comfortable being not the right way to be in quotations, kind of like? How did you get there, like?

Jackson: 4:27

it honestly took a while. So I would say like early elementary school was great, I had so much fun, I had really great friends. And then, I don't know why, but in grade five no, in grade six, actually a flip just kind of switched. I feel like that's also when kids start kind of going through puberty and becoming a little bit more mean. And it was just like Jackson's a girl, jackson's gay, like I just felt so targeted by everybody and the girls didn't want to hang out with me because I was a boy and the guys didn't want to hang out with me because I was too girly.

Jackson: 5:01

So I didn't really have any friends and I just hated going to school and it sucked, and so I switched schools for seventh grade and I kind of had it in my head going into the school like, okay, this is the way you need to be, you need to act this kind of way to be friends with these kinds of people, and that's just what you're going to do.

Jackson: 5:21

So it was, it was great, like seventh grade was was fun and junior high was great, until the feelings just started to come up more and more and more and I couldn't really suppress them as easily anymore. And yeah, I don't know, I don't really know what possessed me to do it, but I just came out to my best friend in ninth grade on a random day and then from there I came out to more of my friends and um came out to my parents a couple months later and I went into high school, just fully out, and I mean, the rest is history, I guess it sounds like from obviously the like what you're saying, that um, you know, going from not fitting into these like social groups that are that are set in place.

Joey: 6:10

You know, like you were saying you can hang out with the boys because you're too feminine and you couldn't hang out with the girls because you physically were a guy. So, like you know, you were struggling to find a place and then when you went to this new school that you you kind of like like when predetermined, how are you going to behave to fit in with these certain groups of people, or you know, and like it sounded like you were struggling with, um, like you suppressing your own identity just to fit in with these other people and just to feel accepted, which is so sad to hear. But like it sounds like by the time you're in grade nine, you were just kind of like I'm sick of this, like I need to just be who I want to be, because it's hard showing up when you don't want to be or you can't be who you're authentic self or your genuine self.

Joey: 6:54

To put that mask on every single day of, like you know, hiding who you need to be or officially are and who you it's, it's exhausting it's so tiring right and I find that, like you said, like growing up in like more of a conservative city, I guess specifically, um, I find that there's more people like you every single day in this entire world that, like, show up and put this mask on and try to be someone they're not just because they don't want to upset the norm. I guess yes definitely right, definitely.

Jackson: 7:29

And I mean, when you're that age I guess, like 13 to 16, the last thing you want to do is stand out. You just want to be like everybody else. You kind of just want to fit in, not get picked.

Joey: 7:43

Yeah.

Jackson: 7:43

And you're kind of willing to do whatever it takes to just make your life easier and I did that for years. But it gets to a certain point where, like, I'm just not really being authentic to myself. And is it worse to be picked on or to feel like nobody knows who I really am?

Joey: 8:03

It's tiring yeah picked on or to feel like nobody knows who I really am.

Joey: 8:06

It's tiring and like, yeah, and like you get sick of the person that you're trying to be because that's not who you want to be and it's also like for me, like I remember in high school I was, I was like you know, I didn't want to take theater because I knew that theater put me in that box of people that I was like scared to be or like I was like yourself, trying to identify like a certain type of way. So I was like scared to be or like I was like yourself, trying to identify like a certain type of way.

Joey: 8:27

So I was like I don't want to go to theater and draw too much attention to myself or yes, I'm funny and yes, I want to be like you know, do all these cool stuff with all the cool people, but at the end of the day, like if I went into theater or if I did something that would class me as like gay when I wasn't ready, it's like a scary yeah, definitely yeah but um, it sounds like by grade nine. We're happy we've come out to pretty much everyone like you feel comfortable in yeah and you said you didn't want to draw too much attention to yourself prior.

Joey: 8:59

So like what was the spotlight spotlight like for you moving forward after grade nine?

Jackson: 9:04

like how did you feel like people reacted to you then and so, moving forward, I feel like once I was out it was less of a, because I feel like lots of people have the same experience being gay in the closet. It's always a question and a topic of conversation and it feels like such a thing. But I found that once I came out it became less of a thing because people already knew, so there was nothing to really question, right, and then you can kind of base people's intentions off of that and I found it easier to connect with people because I didn't have to hide who I was and if they liked me, they liked me. If they didn't, then I don't really care. But yeah, no, high school was great.

Jackson: 9:49

I feel like I got minimally. I actually didn't really get bullied at all for being gay in high school. It was way less of a thing. I also had a really great group of friends in high school, so that definitely helped. But yeah, no, once I came out, I think it got a lot easier to just live life in general do you um or did you have any um people in your school that were identified as queer?

Joey: 10:17

or were there other people like, especially in high school, like as that, like year or that time in your life like I feel like that's when most people kind of come out and like are confident to be who they want to be, because they're adolescent and going into adulthood. Do you feel like there was anyone else there that you could kind of like lean on or anyone to support or no?

Jackson: 10:34

honestly. No, I was one of the only openly gay kids in high school. I feel like lots of people have come out since graduating, but when I was in high school I was one of the only ones, at least to my knowledge but I had no gay friends at all. It was all mostly straight girls and the odd straight guy.

Joey: 10:57

So you graduated, and then you Tell me about your first job.

Jackson: 11:03

What did you? Do my first job was at McDonald's. I was in. I guess 11th grade and I worked hold on were you the drive-thru king?

Joey: 11:13

yeah, I was the drive, I knew it.

Jackson: 11:15

I was the drive-thru king which, honestly, I feel like that job has helped me a lot, because your multitasking skills to do that job have to be insane, because you're literally taking payments, taking orders all at the same time. It's so busy. You're literally like what? Like 15, 16 there's so much going on. People are also just dicks. You, because you're working in fast food you're dealing with the worst, like the worst kinds of people like why are you yelling at a 15 year old?

Joey: 11:43

you're 40 literally because it's your fries are too salty, yeah, and I'm like I had a grip.

Jackson: 11:48

I can't help that deep but no, yeah, that was my first job. I worked there for like over a year when I was in high school and I saved up all my money and I went on a backpacking trip after I graduated with the money I'd saved up from that job. Cool, yeah, so it really paid off.

Joey: 12:03

But did your friend just come to the drive-thru and like wind you up and be like Jackson's working? No?

Jackson: 12:07

not really. I was kind of embarrassed that I worked there so I didn't really advertise it a ton.

Joey: 12:12

That's fair, but yeah, no that was my what was your Okay, tell me your McDonald's meal. What's your McDonald's order? My McDonald's order Come on, what did you eat when you were there?

Jackson: 12:20

I would literally just get nuggets or like a McDouble, like nothing too crazy. I love that. What was yours?

Joey: 12:28

um, it's really funny. When I worked there, I was actually pescatarian, so I only ate fish.

Jackson: 12:33

Oh really, yeah. So oh, you got the filet of fish I would really occasionally eat that, but I also that scares me what's she order?

Joey: 12:46

tell us about your coming out story. So like who was the first person you came out to?

Jackson: 12:52

like how did you feel like before, slash afterwards we were you ready to come out, or did you feel like it was like forced, or um, at this point I feel like I was ready, so the first person I came out to was my friend naz, who I'm no longer in contact with. But love you girl, she's the best maybe she'll hear this.

Jackson: 13:10

I hope she hears this if you're listening, shout out oh um, but it was in ninth grade and there was this one specific guy who took the bus home with us who would just always bully me for no reason, like he would just bully me. But at this point I had gotten to the point where if someone bullied me I would stand up for myself. So when he bullied me I would stand up for myself, and it was just kind of like a little like I don't know. We had this like squabble situation.

Joey: 13:35

I don't know. Okay, hold on. When you say stand up for yourself, what do you mean? Do you?

Jackson: 13:39

mean like, like I would like fight back Physically. Not physically, but like verbally. I'm not really a physical fighter, but I'm definitely like a words girly. Okay, someone yelled at me. My I was like no, I'm not gay. No, honestly, like at that point I was just fed up and I was like it wasn't even about being gay he was just like mean to everybody and I was like you're stupid, yeah.

Jackson: 14:01

But I got home from school one day and I forget what had. Oh, I actually do remember he had like these little paint balls and he broke one on my coat and it was like this really nice, like pea coat from Gap.

Jackson: 14:16

And I was like I was so pissed about it and I was just texting my friend about it and I was like it's so stupid, like whatever. And then I remember I text her and I was like I don't know why it matters if I'm gay, like that shouldn't be a reason for him to treat me like that. And she goes wait, dot, dot, dot dot, did you just come out? And I was like um, yeah, I did Like I'm gay whatever, and she was like your seat could stay with me.

Jackson: 14:47

She literally told our entire program. So maybe not shout out, naz, because that was a little bit shady, but I came to school the next day at lunch and we were sitting in our like. So basically at my middle school the teachers would leave their classrooms at lunch so you could just sit in their classrooms and we would always go to this one classroom and eat. And I remember because I've always been one for the dramatics I was like pulling friend one by one and I'd take them out in the hallway and be like I have to tell you something, okay, and they'd be like oh my god, like so happy for you. And then I pull my one friend and I'm like hey, like I'm gay. And she's like I know.

Jackson: 15:26

Naz told me and I was like Naz, you shady. But yeah, so that was the start of my coming out journey and then after that, like I guess, moving into high school, it wasn't as much of a thing for people, for new people to ask, because they were meeting me as a new person, not someone they'd already known. So it wasn't really like oh, like coming out to them as gay.

Joey: 15:50

You'd already like confirmed your identity? Yeah.

Jackson: 15:54

I mean, obviously people asked because I feel like people do that back then I feel like people now just don't really come up to you and they're like oh, like random question are you gay?

Joey: 16:02

Yeah, like what's your sexual orientation?

Jackson: 16:04

Yeah, like it's not a thing anymore. But back then it would be like the girl comes up to you at a party and she goes. I have to ask you something and like don't be, mad and I'm like, oh my god, I know where this is going.

Joey: 16:22

And she goes are you gay? And you're like yeah, and she goes oh my god, that's so cute. I love that. Um, I know it's so, it's so true. I'm like I've like I've always wanted a gay best friend. I've always wanted a gay best friend.

Jackson: 16:28

I'm like wait what like? You're like, not me, but love that um. And then I came out to my parents summer, going into grade 10.

Joey: 16:38

It was like a couple of weeks after I got my ear pierced and wait, wait, hold on, hold on as to as which side did you get here the?

Jackson: 16:45

left. It was like a whole thing, literally. You have to get the left, you have to get the left what was?

Joey: 16:50

what was that about? Like what? I don't even and that was a thing in england too. It's like that.

Jackson: 16:54

That must have been a worldwide but I mean, I guess before there were dating apps and stuff like that, you had to do like kind of covert like hey, I'm gay, without actually being like hey, I'm gay, if that makes sense. No, I don't get that.

Joey: 17:10

So like in my face, you're like, he's not like, say you're in public.

Jackson: 17:14

Okay, in the in the 90s, when it started to become less stigmatized being gay, but it was still like a little bit stigmatized. If you're out in public maybe it's not the safest to be like I'm a gay person, but if you have your right ear pierced, and you see, another guy with his right for his right ear pierced, then you could be like that's a non-verbal way to be like hey, like I'm gay, this is a safe space.

Joey: 17:35

Let's figure it out let's fuck, let's fuck like you know what I'm saying you're like, his right ear is pierced, my right, yeah, yeah, take off your clothes exactly so.

Jackson: 17:43

My parents did not want me to have that journey of the right ear. So then a couple weeks later, my like my parents would always ask me kind of and well, my mom would honestly ask me. In passing, my dad was just like kind of, would turn a blind eye to it, but I literally was like dressing up in princess dresses in preschool. Like me and my best friend siobhan in preschool, we would get fake married but we'd both wear dresses like it was a super cute yeah but um, but yeah, my mom just would ask and ask and ask and ask.

Jackson: 18:12

And then I I told her like I was like yeah, I am. And then it was this whole like dramatic thing. And then my dad was like doing work in the basement, and he came upstairs and he's like let's go for a drive. And I was like, oh my God, so your mom?

Jackson: 18:28

had obviously told your dad, my mom, told him yeah, so we get in the car and we probably drive for about half an hour in silence, like no music, nothing, just like in the car and I'm crying and I'm just like, oh my god, kate, this is so awkward.

Joey: 18:43

Were you crying because you knew that he already knew I was just crying because it was really uncomfortable and emotional.

Jackson: 18:48

How old were you? I was 15. Okay, yeah. And then he goes, so what, you like guys? And I'm like yeah, and he goes, so like you want to be with a guy, and in my head I'm like, okay, well, that's kind of the whole point of it all, and I'm like yeah, and he just goes, okay, well, I don't really get that, but okay, and then just keeps driving and like that was it, and we probably drove for like another half hour and I'm just like he like, and we both like to quiet in silence, like inside, like we probably said he's processing.

Joey: 19:25

For sure, like it like yeah so, and then we got home and I like scurried up to my bedroom and I was like awkward, awkward, awkward, and then yeah, it was like, fine, I scurried, I scurried up to my bedroom and I was like, ooh, awkward, awkward, awkward. And then it was like, fine, scurried, I scurried up to my bed. I literally scurried Like I ran up the stairs on like my hands and knees.

Jackson: 19:40

But um, yeah, no, after that it was like my dad took a while to come around Like he just wasn't super warmed up to the idea yet so nor did he probably like understand like what actually meant.

Jackson: 19:56

Yeah, which like to be fair, honestly, in high school I feel like it made us butt heads a lot just because you're a kid and you don't really get that your parents are being parents for the first time and being people for the first time. But now that I am older I'm like, okay, honestly, it could have been a lot worse. Like he was a football guy growing up like very like masculine like he was born in Edmonton he was born in.

Jackson: 20:18

Well, he was born in Montreal, actually, and then he moved to Edmonton when he was a child. But um, so brought up in like a very conservative environment, exactly right and like he was the man of the house, like it was just a very like masculine setting that he grew up in. And so imagine, your firstborn son comes out to you as gay. You have no gay friends, you know no gay people you don't even really know anything about being a gay person.

Jackson: 20:44

Obviously that's jarring at first for sure. So I do truly understand that it took time for him to come around and now that I'm an adult myself, I'm like, okay, that is a lot to process as a parent. But obviously in high school I'm like my dad's a dick.

Joey: 20:59

I hate him like he's the worst, but I'm like he was just like doing the best he could totally, um, and like back then too, like we weren't like like, as a society resourceful to like give any information, and like being gay meant like one thing only a society resourceful to like giving information, and like being gay meant like one thing only.

Jackson: 21:15

And like exactly.

Joey: 21:16

Not to like, not to mention, like I don't want to be rude or overspeak here but like you're 15. Yeah, Like, and you go to your, your parents, and you're like I'm gay and I like men, and they're like they don't understand that.

Jackson: 21:29

Also, I had literally been vegetarian like five times. I'd gone through five different sports that I thought I was going to stick with forever, like I, was just so all over the board. Yeah, that to them it's like, okay, this is just another thing. Jackson's going to do for like a couple of weeks for attention, Like really like honestly.

Joey: 21:44

Yeah.

Jackson: 21:45

But obviously as I got older he saw just me as Jackson and not as his like gay son, which is nice and like. Obviously we're not gonna sit down and talk about my dating life which I don't even think I would want to anyways but I can tell him if I'm seeing somebody or like would feel comfortable introducing a guy to him and not thinking like okay, he's gonna puke and like cry about it.

Joey: 22:12

You know what I mean do you think that that's like an internalized homophobic response for us, because obviously your dad's not gonna puke and cry if you're like, but like, but like you're responding that way. Do you think we do that because I do the same thing, like I love my dad to bits and he's met my partner, but like getting me to that stage and like not having that like I'm like like how's my dad going to like freak out or be like why is there another dude in my house Like I have two brothers too.

Joey: 22:37

I'm like it's all my poor mom, my poor mom.

Jackson: 22:40

She's like it's all fucking men. I think it's just that for so long I convinced myself that my dad wasn't okay with it, when I think he was just kind of figuring out what it was, that I just assumed that he would be disgusted by it. But now I'm like, realistically. I know that if I'm happy, my dad is so happy and proud of me.

Joey: 23:03

Oh, yeah, yeah um, I think it's as well like another thing like I don't want to like, ill speak one more time, but I want to say that, like, I think it's very quick, we're very quick as like a society to like and like maybe, as like a queer community to like. Be like edmonton is like, not progressive, because we're talking of when you lived there.

Jackson: 23:27

Four years ago and like exactly prior right, like maybe it's. It's very slow, but it is going it is right, like you said to me, like mike, there's, there's one gay bar.

Jackson: 23:37

Yeah, that's something I mean still, but even just the world in general, the way it's progressing. And I mean I'm not that old, but I was 15, 10 years ago. I came out 10 years ago and just thinking about the media and like the media I was consuming, especially like there was no gay artists. All of the music was very like hetero centric. There were no queer tv shows that I like watched and related to. There was nobody that I. There was no media that I could consume that really related to my experience. But I feel like now there's so much more and it's not in a way where it's one gay person on the show.

Joey: 24:16

That's like the token gay friend right, it's like he's like so sassy and he goes shopping and he's like, yeah, like it's not that kind of thing, it's not like bias, yeah it's like a queer coming of age where it's like okay, I'm gay and I'm in high school and I'm navigating that.

Jackson: 24:27

Or an artist like chaparone, for example, who's massive right now, holy shit, and has music that it's actually like wow. I've gone through something so similar to this and I've never heard it expressed in a way that's like so beautiful I know, I wow, yeah, I, I never thought about that way.

Joey: 24:45

I got really sidetracked when you said chapel ron I fucking love it I, I my boyfriend's like, why do you play me so much? I'm like I just I just fuck with it, like I just I think, she's so awesome. She's awesome um ideal guest one day.

Jackson: 24:59

Maybe she'll be in my, in my living room, we'll manifest it yeah, we should, and maybe she'll talk about her experience.

Joey: 25:06

Totally, it's so nice and positive to hear your experience and you know how you came out and I love it. I think it's like a, it's a full circle moment, you know, like we totally also reliving it and getting to share it because, um, for you, it seems like your identity, you, you, at a young age you were definitely like I know who I am and who I want to be, and I need to, like, lose the stereotypes of all these people around me, and I need to just lean into who.

Joey: 25:31

I want to be moving forward and I want to know more about your current relationship status and dating in Vancouver, I guess, okay.

Jackson: 25:46

I'm currently single.

Joey: 25:47

Okay.

Jackson: 25:49

Mingling.

Joey: 25:50

Okay.

Jackson: 25:50

Yeah, living my best single life at the moment.

Joey: 25:54

Okay, and when you, so you're single right now. So how do you meet people in our queer community and like is it organic, do you feel like you go to like bars, or is it more of an online dating situation Like? What kind of platforms do you use?

Jackson: 26:11

So I do go to the bars occasionally, not super frequently. One of my close friends is actually single right now as well, so I think that kind of it's always fun when your friend is single with you, because then you can kind of just bounce off each other and like wingman and yeah, go out and have fun, totally yeah.

Jackson: 26:29

So now that he's single, I've been going out more, just because it's it's easier to do when your friend is single. It's like, yeah, it's more fun. But, um, I also use some of the apps, which can be great, and I've had really good experiences, but I've also had not the best experiences, so I think it's just well. I don't even know, I guess that's what you make of it.

Joey: 26:52

Okay, I'm gonna pry, I want to know. Tell me, I don't want to know, like, just because for like humor, like skip that, but like I want to know. You said and I saw you an eye roll um, oh, like a bad experience. Yeah, we, I want to educate people on, obviously, the, the apps and stuff, like they're very accessible nowadays and I find they're, they can be a great tool. But obviously I saw you say straight away like I've had a bad experience yeah tell me about a bad experience that potentially you want to share.

Jackson: 27:23

So one that sticks out in my mind is this was when I first moved to vancouver like within a couple of months of me moving here. So I was 21 and obviously I moved to the city. It was covid when I moved here as well, so clubs weren't open it was really hard to meet people, so right.

Jackson: 27:40

I was on tinder mostly to just meet people, go on dates, connect, just get to know the city. So I matched with this guy. He was 31, which is already like okay, that's like a bit old for a 21 year old.

Jackson: 27:54

Whatever we're chatting, he's cute. He asked me to go for drinks and a bite to eat. I'm like, okay, perfect. And he makes this comment, which in hindsight, I'm like, but he makes a comment which, in hindsight, I'm like. But he makes a comment and he's like, yeah, like dating here is so bad. The last time I went on a date with this guy, he like told me I was fat and like left the date early and I was like that's really fucked up. Like you do not look fat in your photos, like you're just like a normal person nothing, not wait so this.

Joey: 28:19

He told you this online. He told me you weren't actually face to face this. He told you this online. He told me this online. You weren't actually face to face no.

Jackson: 28:24

so he told me this online. And in my head I was like wait, that's actually so mean. Like he just looked like a normal, like average body type guy Right. And I was like, okay, well, day of the date comes and we go to the flying pig in yale town and he's like I, I have a table on the patio and I'm like, okay, great, so I get there, and I'm like mine is like five tables too. Yeah, literally I'm like scanning the patio and I'm like, are you here?

Jackson: 28:52

he's like yeah, I'll wave he starts waving and I'm like, oh, my god that there's no way.

Jackson: 28:58

Like there is no way, that's the same person. So I sit down and he has the same face. So I know it's the same person, but he just looks different, like quite a bit older and like it just seems like these pictures were taken in his prime and he's no longer in his prime. So I sit down and immediately I'm like okay, it's an awkward position because you don't want to be like I'm leaving, like you want to be nice and be like okay, I'm going to at least sit and have a drink with you, because at this point you're leaving based on looks.

Jackson: 29:30

Yeah, exactly, I'm like I'm going to sit down and I'm going to see how this goes, because I wasn't really going with the intention to date somebody or anything like that. I'm just going to meet people, so maybe he's a really nice guy and we become friends. You're new here, you want to make connections, exactly exactly. So we start talking and he's just the most pretentious, douchey guy ever, like I will say. I remember bringing up one of my friends, rowan, and he goes oh, I know rowan. And I'm like oh no, you don't. She just moved here a month ago. And he goes oh, I thought you meant Rowan. Pulls out his phone and she has like 100K on Instagram. I'm like, ugh, you are literally gross.

Jackson: 30:08

Yeah, it's not what you want, so then we're sitting having our drinks and he says something and he goes yeah, I'm like I'm turning 37 soon and I go 37? Your Tinder said you were 31. And 37 your tinder said you were 31 and he goes oh yeah, that's so weird. I just don't know how to change my age on there. And I'm like, okay, I'm literally 21, 20 fucking one.

Joey: 30:35

And this 37 year old who lied about his appearance and his age by six years, is like on a date with me, right now and like you know, at that time, at that point, to like him, like, as he's 31 online and stuff like there's no long term, like sorry not you know, but like you're not going in with it, like knowing that you want to date him and like it's long term for you, because, like you know that, like, the age gap isn't a thing for you right, so um, but.

Jackson: 30:56

And then him saying 37 like yeah, I was out at your lord. So at that point I was like, hey, like I need to go. And then, yeah, I was like, honestly, I think I'm gonna call it after these drinks I'm so pooped. And he's like are you sure like we should go somewhere else?

Joey: 31:12

I'm like no but you politely stayed on the date I politely stayed.

Jackson: 31:15

I had probably like two or three drinks, because we got food as well, like we got appies to share.

Joey: 31:20

I have a question what did you split the bill, did you?

Jackson: 31:23

I split it. I split it because it was just like I don't know, like okay that's fair yeah but, also I don't, when I go on a date I, if I'm having a really good time, like I'll get the bill, or if it's like I don't know what the vibe is like we can split it, or if he gets it, that's great, but like that's not really a big thing for me. It's not like financial, yeah right, right, right, like.

Joey: 31:46

But like what do you expect to? Do you have a conversation with that, the person end of the day? Do you say like, hey, like, should we split the bill? Or do you expect, like what? What is your expectation, I guess?

Jackson: 31:56

it just depends what the vibe is when the bill comes, like if it's, if it's. If I'm having a lot of fun, I'll just be like I'll grab the bill like.

Joey: 32:02

Honestly, what about if I say it's a $300 bill?

Jackson: 32:04

okay, well, no, I was also gonna say usually when I go on a first date, it's usually like a drinks place okay, so the way. I like to do it is if I get drinks at the first place and they get drinks at the second place, that's great. Or like I really like the 50-50 thing, like if I'm seeing somebody like I'll get this, you get that.

Jackson: 32:20

It doesn't really have to be a like keep track of it thing, but as long as I feel like it's a mutual, a mutually beneficial kind of situation, right then, that's totally fine by me. I don't mind getting a dinner, or if I know you're gonna get the next one, yeah. But if I find that like I was seeing this guy and I was literally paying for, everything and I'm like, okay, honestly, I'm not your sugar daddy also, I'm not in a place to be paying for everything and I'm like okay, honestly, I'm not your sugar daddy.

Jackson: 32:43

Also, I'm not in a place to be paying for literally everything I hate that.

Joey: 32:48

Yeah, um people that aren't financially conscious turns me off no, I know, I'm like I'm, like we're not rich unless like you're like financially like stable and like ready to like vancouver is a very expensive city to like be able to live in so like oh yeah, drinks and stuff like, especially if you're going out, even for drinks, cocktails are like 16 dollars if you both have like four or five. That's a pretty hefty bill. That's crazy. Yeah, it's so expensive. And then it's like tip tax and everything else?

Jackson: 33:13

yeah, exactly. And then it's like, let's go somewhere else for food. It's like, oh my god, am I paying for food as well?

Joey: 33:18

like jesus christ the the struggles of online dating and like obviously someone like imposing, as you know, using old photos and like lying about their age. They're very real in like this day and age and yeah honestly, it's quite. It's more embarrassing for the person that's doing it, like you know, read the room yeah, like read the room, like what do you expect when I come and see you?

Jackson: 33:38

it is read the room. But then you also kind of feel icky because you're like I literally just got catfished. Honestly, the thing about me is I just hate having my time wasted Right and I am so, so, so busy with working all the time and my friends and just so much on the go that if I carve out an evening for somebody and then it goes like that, I'm like, oh, there's so many other things I could have done with this evening. Totally.

Joey: 34:09

Besides getting catfished by an almost 40, year old man. I feel these are a constant struggle for online dating, like, no matter who you are, you know people you know shave a couple years off, or they use their best photos or a good editing app, you know. So, um, that's just social media and like social platforms for you in general, leaning into social platforms. Um, I want to ask you.

Joey: 34:28

I have 10 platforms online dating and I want to know um how you categorize them okay um, and like out of 10 I guess, like if how you use them, so let's start with hinge first. So where would that sit? Like like how you use them, so let's start with Hinge first.

Jackson: 34:44

So where would that sit?

Joey: 34:45

Like. Would you use the platform?

Jackson: 34:47

I've used Hinge before.

Joey: 34:50

Successful, or like how did you find it?

Jackson: 34:53

Actually the last guy I was kind of seeing. I met on Hinge and he was a sweetie so that was good, but I feel like Hinge is one of the least sleazy.

Joey: 35:00

Okay.

Jackson: 35:01

I feel like people are more on there looking for dates as opposed to hookups, which is good, so maybe I would rate Hinge at a 2 or a 3.

Joey: 35:12

Out of 10?.

Jackson: 35:13

Yeah.

Joey: 35:15

Okay.

Jackson: 35:16

I would rate it in the top tier.

Joey: 35:18

Oh, so 1 is best.

Jackson: 35:19

Yeah, 1 is best, 10 is worst.

Joey: 35:21

So Hinge, wow, she's pretty up there. Okay, so what about Bumble?

Jackson: 35:27

I've actually never used Bumble. I feel Bumble Bumble seems like kind of random.

Joey: 35:32

It's very female-driven.

Jackson: 35:34

Yeah, okay, right, because the girl messages first on Bumble. Right, yeah, like, if you like each other, you can't actually message them, unless the girl messages you first.

Joey: 35:52

Okay, I love that it will expire. I do think it's good but like the platform's not really like forward for, like gay men, yeah, yeah.

Jackson: 35:55

So, unlike what's, if you're a lesbian couple, free reign. It's a free-for-all baby, like I don't know, I don't know.

Joey: 35:58

Okay, so, bumble, what are we saying? 10?

Jackson: 36:02

Yeah, I guess like 10. Somewhere in the bottom tier, for sure.

Joey: 36:05

Not going to use that right. Okay, Then what about eHarmony?

Jackson: 36:10

eHarmony also bottom tier. I feel like that's so boomer.

Joey: 36:15

Live, laugh, love, yeah, okay, what about?

Jackson: 36:20

Tinder, tinder. Okay, so here's the thing okay, come on I feel like tinder is one of my favorites, I'm not gonna lie. I think that I think that the interface is really cringy, which is super random to say but like it just looks like a video game.

Jackson: 36:39

Like it looks like a game which it kind of is, if you want it to be, but um, but yeah, I think that tinder has a good mix of people who are just there looking for like something casual and people who are there looking for like dates or friends, or I feel like it's easy to meet people on there.

Joey: 36:57

Oh no, that's bumble. It has like the friends option, like it's like bumble, like, yeah, I think that's bumble.

Jackson: 37:01

Oh yeah, sorry, I'm getting confused, I don't even know, but um, yeah, I feel like the friends option, like Bumble, like friends. Yeah, I think that's Bumble. Oh yeah, sorry I'm getting confused, I don't even know. But yeah, I feel like the guys on Tinder are also more attractive than the guys on Hinge. I don't know why, but yeah, I feel like Hinge honestly doesn't have the best in my opinion. Maybe I'll say guys who are not my type on Hinge.

Joey: 37:17

Interesting. Okay, so where do we want to put Tinder?

Jackson: 37:20

I'd say maybe like number three. Actually, I'm going to swap Hinge and Tinder. I'm going to say Tinder number two, hinge number three.

Joey: 37:26

Okay, I want to know what your number one is then. Okay, so what about?

Jackson: 37:32

I actually don't know what my Okay. Wow, I might have to move some things around, wow.

Joey: 37:37

What about Matchcom?

Jackson: 37:40

Again very boomer matchcom again very boomer. Not wouldn't say that I've dabbled. Also, I think, any of the ones that you have to go on your computer to like I feel like that's a computer one I think they have an app.

Joey: 37:51

Oh, do they have an app? They must do. People don't use their computers. I guess, I guess, I guess I just think of e-harmony having like commercials and I know 2010 when online dating was just starting, yeah, so to me I'm gonna put that at like nine ten do you remember when there's like the e-harmony, like um commercials, when it was like and we found love on e-harmony and it was like the couples and it was very much giving like divorcee, yeah, like giving it a second shot might not last. Yeah, um, okay, what about?

Jackson: 38:22

squirt. I've never used squirt okay.

Joey: 38:26

So for context, squirt is a gay male app.

Jackson: 38:32

Okay, right I could be wrong, I don't know. Interesting, it's been years since I've used any of these apps, so yeah, just kidding, I did the hand flip, just kidding.

Joey: 38:40

Okay, what about Scruff?

Jackson: 38:43

Scruff I also haven't used. I think Scruff is more for like mask for mask vibes right.

Joey: 38:49

I don't know, I think, so I've never used it. Well, the name Scruff.

Jackson: 38:52

Seems like it's for someone scruffy which.

Joey: 38:54

I'm definitely not. Yeah, no.

Jackson: 38:57

But yeah, I've never used that one.

Joey: 38:59

Okay, okay, that one okay, um okay, so then we're gonna, we're gonna bring in grinder grinder good, old grinder good old grinder. Okay, talk to me about that.

Jackson: 39:09

I mean, like, stereotypically, grinder is obviously like you're more sleazy, like it's kind of very sleazy it's more of an immediate hookup yeah, it can be used as that can you match someone and meet good connections, I'm sure you can yeah but um it's typically in the within the community.

Joey: 39:24

I feel like it's more like hookup vibes or like you're hot, let's get drinks and then fuck yeah um, it's pretty direct yeah, for sure, it's actually very direct.

Jackson: 39:33

I was like drinks, that's crazy. But yeah, no, I've definitely gone through eras where I've like dabbled in that for sure, but it is exactly what you said.

Joey: 39:49

Very sleazy, very transactional, very like what do you do? Like, when I was saying drinks, I meant like drink your piss. Oh yeah, Question mark.

Jackson: 39:53

Question mark. Yeah, no, it's, it's, I'm dead. It's kind of crazy. I feel like sometimes I'll get it if I'm like, for example, I was just in montreal so I was like you know what I'm gonna get grinder, like I'm here for the weekend, like right, it's pride, like yeah, whatever, it's an immediate, let's see what's happening I didn't end up meeting anybody, but actually no, I met a guy for drinks literally just drinks which is like random.

Jackson: 40:14

But um, yeah, the messages you get on there are actually like very jarring. Like like you'll literally get a message and it's like, hey, you're close. I'm on my bed with my pants down, um, my front door's unlocked, like just come in. And it's like, um no, that sounds really scary. Actually I'm not.

Jackson: 40:34

I'm so good yeah but yeah, so for that I would put grinder at, maybe like a six. Oh okay, because it's it can be fun. Yeah, she can sit like a six. Oh okay, because it can be fun. Yeah, she can sit at a six, she's fun sometimes, but not something you want to have on your phone all the time.

Joey: 40:49

Yeah, fair, totally got that. I was going to say plenty of fish, but I feel like I don't know her. I kind of know where you stand with that Poff, what Poff it's called what poff it's called. Oh, what the fuck I didn't know it had an acronym. Wait, you didn't know, it was called poff I didn't know.

Jackson: 41:06

It was referred to as poff plenty of fish I didn't know people were even talking about it in general, let alone.

Joey: 41:12

There's a huge age gap here and it's, uh, it's definitely showing right now a solid five years. My next question, and this might be my last, one, okay, I want to know. So I actually want to share um, since we were talking about grinder, like online dating, um like in the, in the queer community, we kind of like categorize ourselves and and like use as tribes, as it's called, in grinder terms um, and I wrote a couple down here, okay, but, um, let's talk about them and then, like, I guess like how we define them so providing more education to totally potentially, people that don't know what these are.

Jackson: 41:53

A little educational moment.

Joey: 41:55

I love it yeah, okay, so a power bottom. Yes, we're gonna start aggressive okay.

Jackson: 42:01

So to me, a power bottom is just somebody who live, laugh, loves bottoming.

Joey: 42:09

Yep, they're just always that's it, it's always bottoming and like they're, they're also like, very determined to be I guess the one in charge maybe- yeah, yeah, but like they're a bottom, like a dominant bottom, yes, oh yeah, dominant, that's a, that's a tribe, I didn't write down dom, dom, yeah, yeah, so they're. They're a power bottom. They are super strong.

Jackson: 42:36

They're not super imagine just therapizing them. They're super strong. I'm gonna fuck you like.

Joey: 42:45

That's not what I meant. What I meant is uh they take charge with their hole yes, they do for sure yep, okay, so then a power top would be, I guess, the reverse yeah, like a dominant, top Dominant top. Yeah, the person that's kind of going to call the shots.

Jackson: 43:04

Yeah.

Joey: 43:04

But they're going to fuck you. Yes, awesome, okay, and then we've got a jock which obviously most North American person refers to.

Jackson: 43:14

Like a gym guy. Gym bro. Yeah, like a muscle man.

Joey: 43:22

Yeah, is that what you say?

Jackson: 43:22

jock is maybe to me a jock would be like a guy that's like a little bit muscular and like post a picture at the gym, yeah like stereotypical, like man, like body, like yeah works out, not like crazy crazy body but has like an athletic build sports yeah, yeah, like a yeah sporty boy, yay sports um, and then we've got Otter. Otter.

Joey: 43:45

This one's hard for me to like, so I feel like I kind of fall into this.

Jackson: 43:51

I don't really know which one I am, I could see you as an otter. I think otter is like a baby bear.

Joey: 43:57

A baby bear.

Jackson: 43:58

So like a bear.

Joey: 43:59

I feel like baby bear should be what it's called.

Jackson: 44:01

Maybe, but it's called maybe but it's not. No, it's not, but I feel like a bear is like an older, bigger version of an otter okay, like I feel like an otter can transition into a bear perhaps, but otter is like teetering, so like it's teetering, it's like a.

Joey: 44:20

It's like a bear who still has their youth, and like they're not big also, like not as hairy, not as hairy, not as big okay yeah, because I feel, like a bear is like a big boy, a big man yeah, yeah, like a little bit more stockier, yeah, um, yeah, maybe it has like a little bit of a belly, like a dad bod kind of situation.

Jackson: 44:39

Yeah, yeah for sure. And then an otter would be like someone with maybe like less hair, maybe a little slimmer.

Joey: 44:41

Yeah, a little bit of a belly, like a dad bod kind of situation. Yeah, yeah, for sure. And then an otter would be like someone with maybe like less hair, maybe a little slimmer yeah, a little bit youthful oh wait. Okay. So that's bear otter jock power bottom, power top. What about so, daddy?

Jackson: 44:59

obviously very daddy obviously speaks for itself um.

Joey: 45:03

We've got twink, twink twink is, twink is like a like a hairless, thin, hairless so there are sphinx pretty much yeah yeah, adjacent for sure, slash sphinx yeah, exactly that's where it derived from. I wonder where it did come from that word I have no idea like is it the candy bar?

Jackson: 45:41

I don't know twinkie. Twinkie Maybe, I don't know.

Joey: 45:44

I don't know. And then we've got twunk, I guess Twunk.

Jackson: 45:49

Twunk is like. So in the same sense that.

Joey: 45:54

What is a twunk?

Jackson: 45:55

So Twunk is to twink, as bear is to otter. Do we see where I'm going with this?

Joey: 46:04

It's like a off-branch.

Jackson: 46:07

Not necessarily off-branch, just like an evolution, let's say so. A twink can evolve into a twunk, in the same way that an otter can evolve into a bear. It's like the older version.

Joey: 46:22

Okay, so a twunk would be ken, like barbie and ken, if we're stereotyping. See, here's what gets kind of stinky, because I feel like because you can, but ken is like a jock.

Jackson: 46:32

No, oh yeah, you're right, twunk would be like I would. I would also. Oh my gosh, you know who twunk would be frankie grande, really, because he's not a twink anymore. He's like 40. Is he 40, I don't know.

Joey: 46:45

He's like older I hope he's not listening. He's like that's not how I categorize my frankie if you're listening to this. You will always be a twink in my heart yeah, I'll honestly respond to the podcast, if you're listening, and tell us what you want to be. Let us know how you feel.

Jackson: 46:59

Let us know if you want to come on with chapel. Even we could do a double header, oh, yeah, we should feature him that would be great. Reach out and then we'll have your people, have your people contact our people and we'll set something up yeah, um, but no, I would. I. I would lovingly refer to him as a twunk okay, that's fair or does twink just transcend age? Who knows? I feel like that's the way.

Joey: 47:24

Is that the way?

Jackson: 47:25

you're portraying it.

Joey: 47:26

But I don't know, I don't know either, like I feel like maybe I feel like twink, like you said, definitely has like a younger vibe to it.

Jackson: 47:33

Yeah. And like they're hairless, maybe Like if you're 40 and calling yourself a twink? I think that's a little bit like. Eh yeah, boredy, and calling yourself a twink, I think that's a little bit like. Yeah, like, move on, you know it's me.

Joey: 47:47

I'm scared, it's me. No, you're, you could. What tribe am I? What do I? If you were to see me in the street not knowing I have lazy hair removal.

Jackson: 47:58

I would definitely say power bottom. No, just kidding I would say. I would say either otter or twunk otter or twunk but I would say maybe more twunk, because I don't know if twink or no. I would say maybe more otter, because I don't know if twinks have facial hair. Do they um?

Joey: 48:17

what about twunk? Okay, see, here's where we get like this is where we get into that nitty-gritty it's really what you make of it. How do I decide what I? Where do I fall?

Jackson: 48:25

no, I know it's a lot it's like you come out and then you're like oh my god, what tribe am I in? And it's this whole other journey. But what would you categorize me as you?

Joey: 48:34

give me twinkie vibe.

Jackson: 48:36

Yeah, I've been told the eye roll, I've been told. But I've been told that by like straight men, which I feel like is derogatory.

Joey: 48:45

But I feel like this is gonna you're gonna hate me for saying this but oh god at your age now at 25, when do you? I'm aging out, I know I'm aging out.

Jackson: 48:55

I think there's like these weird years between 25 and, let's say, 34 where it's like am I a twink, am I a twunk, am I an otter, am I a bear? You're just kind of a free agent. You just cling to what feels right you're not a bear no, well, I know, not yet at least.

Joey: 49:14

But no, I don't think that's my journey, but um, yeah, I'm definitely on the, on the pathway, pathway to twunk jack, based on your experiences and who you are today, what advice would you give someone who is maybe struggling with their identity, or is struggling to maybe come out as gay or bisexual, or doesn't really know how to communicate in their current social setting, in their current?

Jackson: 49:42

social setting. So honestly, as cliche as it sounds, I would say that it really does get better. And the older you get and every year that goes by, you will become more and more comfortable with who you are and the space you occupy in this world and you'll find people who love you and care about you as a person and not as your sexuality or anything like that. And, yeah, there's people out there just waiting to love you and totally you can only find that when you really love yourself.

Joey: 50:16

Oh very true. I support that. I, yeah, I feel that it's once you really start to like feel you know who you want to be. It's start. It's time to start sharing it. You know, and surrounding yourself by people that like love you for who you are, um, that you feel comfortable around, is like maybe like a key component. That concludes our episode today with jackson.

Jackson: 50:42

Thanks for being here thank you so much for having me. I had so much fun good, good.

Joey: 50:48

I'm glad thanks for sharing your experiences and um for letting everyone get to know a little piece of you that maybe they didn't know.

Jackson: 50:53

Of course, thanks for having me on and letting me yap.

Joey: 50:56

Yeah, we love a good yap remember that new episodes go live every wednesday. Tune in on whatever platform you choose and we'll see you there. Yay, ciao, bye.