Joey: 0:14

Welcome back to another episode of I'm Not Gay. You Are with your host, joey. That is me. Thanks for being here and thanks for tuning in being here and thanks for tuning in, alrighty. So today I want to talk to you about coming out and the struggles people may face. Maybe they're not ready Today. All I can speak on is my experience and my story, alrighty.

Joey: 0:42

So not everything that you hear on this podcast or not everything you see on the internet or instagram profiles definitely social media. I feel that there is this power seeing people confident in their sexuality and who they are today and and I wasn't always as confident, as comfortable with who I am today, maybe like five or 10 years ago. So I definitely want to talk about my coming out story and my journey and how that has made me who I am today and who I am proud to be today, am today and who I am proud to be today. So I want to talk early years and start very young. Were we born gay or are we nurtured into being gay? And, to be honest, I don't really know the answer. I don't. I love to ask people this question and I had a recent conversation with my partner about it and I was like you know, like, do you think that we're born gay? Or do you think that you know we develop these qualities and like, like men or same sex coupling because of the way we were nurtured and brought up and like? Or maybe you know something was missing in our childhood or something we had tooured and brought up and like. Or maybe you know something was missing in our childhood or something we had too much of in our childhood, or maybe it was the food we ate and all the the bad stuff in the kool-aid that we were drinking. Um, I, I you know what. I think about this a lot. Truly, I I'm not sure what the answer is and I don't need to know. I just like to get people's perspective on things and I like to understand what their thoughts are, because it's quite enlightening listening to somebody else's point of view and it really like it almost just changes yours for a second and like you're like, oh damn, I never thought about that way, or that's really interesting to to hear or to understand. Like I never would have expected that or understood that. So I think, when it comes to nature being, we are born this way, or nurture being we are, we are developed into being gay. I don't know, I think it's 50 50 if I'm going to be honest, and I know that sits on the fence and it's not super controversial.

Joey: 3:12

But hear me out, let's start from the beginning, in school. So primary school, elementary, whatever you call it, junior high, I don't know, but for me it was primary school. I was very young and before I went into high school I only ever had girlfriends, only ever girls, like no guys. The guys that I was friends with were maybe just in passing, there were just other students and I wouldn't call them friends like. The girls that I hung around with were my solid, you know, core six girls and we'd go to each other's houses, we'd hang out on the street, which is just like our cul-de-sac, or you know.

Joey: 3:57

And I never really got along with boys like I, never. I just I didn't like them. I don't't know. Did I find them intimidating? Probably, yeah, like they called me gay and a bunch of shit, you know. So I felt that I never really got along with guys. Period, that's it really.

Joey: 4:18

Um, now, being who I am today, I feel very confident and comfortable with my sexuality. I couldn't care less. I don't see men as like scary or me as inferior to them in any way. But I definitely, when I was a kid, like I didn't play soccer or football or whatever you want to call it, um, rugby or honestly I didn't play any sports. I definitely pulled out my inhaler every PE class and was like, no, thank you, I'm asthmatic, I can't run. And the teacher was like, okay, joe, I definitely chose to not surround myself with with like masculine or male figures in my life. I definitely, like was drawn to more of like female energy and just I guess their company and that kind of plays a part in why I think that I was nurtured into being gay was because I took on maybe a lot of feminine energy, because that's all I kind of like knew being around growing up for the first 10 years, 15 years of my life. You know, the nature part would just be me being born this way and I grew up to be who I am today, which there's always, you know, a very high possibility. That's the case too. I just believe that all of our decisions and things that we do as a child obviously impact us growing up.

Joey: 5:48

There is a nurturing part to being gay and liking same-sex in my experience, and that's what I want to preference here is this is my experience and my opinion. You might have a completely different opinion and a different experience to me, and you hung around with all boys and you're, you're still gay. Well damn, maybe you're breaking my, my thought process and maybe that makes more sense too, because you hung around with men all the time, so you were like, oh damn, like I want to sleep with you, or maybe not, I don't know, that's my nature versus nurture argument. I'm 50, 50. I actually have no idea, but I would love if you would like to write in and tell me your thoughts on your experience and and what you think makes us gay today, because it's a very interesting piece. Right, like, I don't know, is it the tv shows we watched? Because, god, I love charmed growing up and that's just about three witches and all their boyfriends. So, uh, the cw network, love, you call me um daytime tv, oh yeah, and everyone else is watching, like football, and like it's the World Cup, the FIFA World Cup, and I'm like, oh my god, I want me to go see Piper and Leo, see if they get back together. The real Charmed fans will know.

Joey: 7:17

Okay, going back to my early years I believed that. So in elementary school, primary school, junior high, high school, whatever you want to like call all of these, these are like the younger years before you're in high school I remember having a lot of like girlfriends and not really any guy friends, actually any guy friends. I just usually hang out with the girls. I felt a little intimidated by guys and not too not too sure how to like interact with them. I hated PE, I didn't like any sports. I so like on a masculine level, I wasn't really connected into my masculine side. Obviously. Um, most of the girls I would just hang around with them and sit with them in class and stuff and that's just kind of like my life day to day. I was very much like. You know what. Thinking about this now it's kind of making me cringe. All my teachers and like all like they're like my friends. Moms used to be like oh, you're like a ladies man, aren't you? And oh, you got all the girls you like. You should share my some tips to my son. And da, da, da, da. I'm like yeah, little do they know. I'm like, leave me alone.

Joey: 8:44

Moving into, like high school when I was like pre-adolescent, um, I don't remember having any like sexual urges towards men or women, to that. To that point I feel like I was like I was pretty much a late bloomer and I don't remember. I don't remember, um, looking at like men and being like sexually attracted to them or like idolizing them or like you know, girls being like, oh, he's cute, he's cute, what do you think of him? You know they wouldn't kind of like include me and like that's, that's okay, like I, I guess, like at the time, like I wasn't really sure and like I didn't really know like what my path was or like where I wanted to be or who I wanted to be with.

Joey: 9:29

And when I moved back to England I did get into a relationship, uh with a girl, um, and I was about 22 years old, I got into a relationship with a girl and we dated, like you could say dated uh, for eight months and but like we had a good sex life. I think like it was like pretty normal. Honestly, I don't really know, like I don't really know how to like it was. We were pretty active. Should I say like, but, um, I knew long term. Should I say like, but, um, I knew long term that it wasn't what I wanted.

Joey: 10:11

Towards the end of that relationship, I was like this doesn't feel right. Like this, this person was trying to like make me something that I'm not, unfortunately, and I'm sorry to say that out loud. But yeah, after my relationship with that person, I took some time for myself and I recuperated and I was like, honestly, I think, deep down, I knew that I was like I want to explore something new and, oh god, let's get into the nitty-gritty of things and no one am I, I hadn't told anyone, I hadn't said anything to anyone, no one knew. And it was kind of like a turn on like that, no one. I mean like I'm saying like no one knew, but I'm like walking around the streets with my high heels on and my rainbow flag being like, yay, girls, no, I, I wasn't, I wasn't. I'm joking, I'm joking.

Joey: 11:09

But at the time I came up with this relationship with a girl and, um, I wanted to seek, um, I guess, like sexual relations with with someone, but I, I knew I didn't want to be with a girl long-term and I didn't want to be with a girl and like, sure, the sex was like okay, but like I, just I felt like I needed some like to level up. I was like I need to level up in some way and like I know that this isn't right for me. So, like, okay, how do I move into like this like man era? How do I look, how do I, how do I like know what I'm looking for in a man like you know? Like where do I start? Like where do I be? Like oh, that man is hot. Like what's my type at this point, like you know.

Joey: 11:56

So I devilishly downloaded Grindr and from there I had a complete blank profile. I had no name on there. I used a fake email address and everything because I was scared it was going to link to my personal email address and send me spam, or someone would see something or someone that I knew that was going to be on there, and they were going to be like, oh my God, like you're gay, like we knew it, or you know, like I don't know. I just I think that was so worrisome for me. I was so worried that someone was going to out me before I was ready. So I just went on with a blank profile photo and I didn't have any, I guess, intention. I just I wanted to know what it felt like to talk to a man sexually, you know, because it's a whole new ballpark and like that's. That was like the first like step for me to like understanding what I wanted and who I, who I was becoming. So I I did, I downloaded Grindr and I made this, this fake account, or I don't account, or I don't want to say fake account because but you weren't getting much from me, sorry.

Joey: 13:12

Like people were like send us pic or pic question mark, and I was like, grow up, like you're not getting that. So, yeah, I was on Grindr and if you don't know, grindr goes off your location. So, um, it will show you the closest um person that has an account active to you and it could be, and it tells you like how far away they are in distance by meters. And I was so scared I logged on and it shows up, it pulls the grid up and I was like, holy fuck, there's so many men on here and you know some profiles are fake, some aren't, some are real, some are, you know, your type, some are not your type, some are like there's the whole.

Joey: 13:58

It's a whole new world for me at this point and I was like kind of overwhelmed and I was scared because it was now showing that this blank profile had just like uploaded, this recently new profile had uploaded and it was, you know, very close to other people. So you know, I was scared that what's in my neighborhood if there was a gay person and I was like, oh no, they're gonna know it's me somehow, because they know that I live, like, I know, 600 meters away from them and like'm clearly, like they know, at this point they're gonna know. And, like you know, they know that I'm 180 centimeters tall. Just kidding. But, like, for anyone who knows these, the platform like it gives you the, the, the height of the user, and like the eye color and the hair color and it gets into the nitty gritty stuff you know. So, um, but I remember asking me when I was making my profile too.

Joey: 14:53

It was like you know, your preference and at the time it was um, passive or um dominant, I think, or top, or, I can't remember, dominant, I think, or top. I can't remember it wasn't bottom or top, it was passive, um or or or dominant. And I was like, oh my god, I don't know what that means. And I remember, like I can't even google it because I'm scared that it'll like get stuck in my google searches or like I want a shared family plan, like good god, and the last thing I want is my dad being like torn apart for like googling, like passive or dominant position type anyways. So I just I clicked preference, rather not say because I wasn't sure at that point, oh gosh, I'm spilling too much anyways. So at this point I had.

Joey: 15:45

Then I made this a profile and I was talking to people and they were like, oh, you're gonna send us a picture, you know, like show us who you are. And I noticed guys would quickly drop the conversation if I wouldn't share a photo of me, which is totally fair. Like who wants to talk to a blank profile? No one, like I totally understand. I just wasn't there yet. So I I went offline and and then I, as I started going back online to like this app and stuff, to like you know talking to.

Joey: 16:18

At this point I feel like I was just like making friends with people like, and they didn't know who I was, but it was just more so me overcoming that fear of talking to another guy and like especially another, another gay guy, like a gay man or someone that like could be attracted to me, because that would just attract all this unwanted attention for me that I was scared of having but wanted to really deep dive and like, feel and look into. Honestly, I feel like this is such an internalized problem, but I feel like this is standardized. I feel like people go through. This is like your identity crisis, right, like this is you being? Like, oh my god, am I gay? Like, do I like men? Um, so I, at this point I had realized that people didn't want to talk to me unless I I had Googled.

Joey: 17:07

I went onto Google and I had grabbed some like random photos of some like random dudes like nothing special to look at, just like, so it'd get me past the I need a photo test. So I then had upload them to Grindr and I said that they were these people, this person was me. I didn't put them on my profile still a blank profile but when are like, can you send us a photo of yourself? Like, just so? I'm not talking to a blank screen. I'd be like, yeah, sure, and that would keep the conversation going, you know, minus the fact they're like oh, you've got nice eyes and your hair is cute and you're, oh, you're blonde. I love blondes. I'm not blonde and I don't have cute eyes, so score, um, but I think I just chose this, like a person or like you know, this profile that I was like kind of didn't represent me anyway, so I wouldn't, they wouldn't, I wouldn't imagine them talking to me, being like I don't know anyways. So, um, I then from there, I felt confident just talking to guys and I was that was awesome, like. I felt like that was you know, um, I was getting a little more confident and I then decided to put my own photos on Grindr.

Joey: 18:21

Um, and I at this point I hadn't put them on the profile cause, still, I wasn't coming out to people. This is still very much in secret. I was just talking to these guys and I was like oh, like, and I would target people to talk to too that were like clearly not also out or like comfortable and like discussing like their sexual activity and stuff like via like, because that way then it would like protect me too, because they wouldn't out me and I wouldn't out them, and that's kind of how it was and honestly, it was kind of a vicious cycle because I feel like for the next like year and a half, two years, I would hook up or, um, you know, talk with these people online, knowing that it will never be anything, but that way that would protect my secret, because they don't want to come out and they would never come out or, uh, say they were temporary in town or something, and it would just kind of be like a one night stand or something, but that way it would protect my secret a little bit longer. Um, so, yeah, that was that. And from there, I remember my first time making out with a guy, um, and this person, when I, like I'd I'd been talking to them for a while, um, they saw my real photos. Um, they lived in like the next city from me, um, back home in england and I had a car, so they had their own place.

Joey: 19:52

There was a bit of an age gap. Sorry, if you're listening, uh, I want to say like, maybe, like four years, maybe, but like four years might seem like nothing, but when you're like 23 or 22 or whatever, or I think I was like 20, maybe I was younger than that, I don't know um, but like, when you're that young, like four years feels like an eternity. Um, so I felt like this person was a lot more mature than me and I felt like they could like guide me and like kind of like, you know, if they were like good to me and stuff, this could be like a regular thing or um, I could just like be comfortable with who I wanted to be, but like behind closed doors, behind their bedroom closed door, um, ew, um. So, yeah, I went to go meet that person for the first time and I'd finished work I think I had like a late shift or whatever and I went home, showered and then my mom was like, oh, like I guess they were in bed, but like she was like, are you going out? And I was like, oh, it was like midnight. I was like, yeah, I'm just gonna go for a night drive. She was like, okay, cool, bye. And like that's what I did love my parents was. They were, they were not like breathing on my neck all the time. They let me do what I wanted to do. And like the age of the age of 22,. Like they're like, ah, leave him to it. So as long as you drive the speed limit, put your seatbelts on Right, um.

Joey: 21:21

So I went to this guy's house and from there, um, nothing kind of like happened. There was no, like you know, there was no touching, there was no like engagement of any sexual activity. Um, he was very patient it's super nice and he knew that I was being super awkward and, like I was very uncomfortable. So, um, it took me like 20 minutes to go and sit on the couch. I'm like why am I being such a freak? But you know, I felt like, oh, that's just my experience for you.

Joey: 21:56

But, um, we did share a kiss, um, that night, and all I remember, and it's ingrained into my head, was the feeling of stubble on my face and I was like, ow, wait a minute, what the fuck is that? I was like that feels horrible. Like I've only at this point ever kissed like women, and like I didn't have stubble either, I don't think, or maybe a little bit, but like, because currently I have a beard, but like I've always had a beard, but I didn't think I had much of a beard when I was that young. So, maybe a little bit, but like I remember actually leaving because we had a kiss and then, like a kiss kiss, you know, like a good one, like a long one and a nice one, it felt good, it felt right, it was nice.

Joey: 23:00

But I remember leaving and getting to my car and scratching my face because, like my chin area was so freaking scratchy and I was like what they? And I was like what the hell? And I looked in the mirror and I turned my little car light on and I was like, oh, and I had this red rash all over my face and it was from his beard, touching, I guess, like my beard, and the friction was like scratching me and I've never felt that before. And I remember when he first put his like lips on mine and his beard touched my face, I was like I like wanted to pull back and he was like, is everything okay? And I was like, um, yes, I think question mark, like I guess that's normal, I gotta get used to that. So, yeah, I guess most people don't think about that, but I never thought about it either and when it happened I was very caught off guard.

Joey: 23:46

But yeah, so after that, uh, we like regularly met up and stuff and I felt like very comfortable with this person and from there, um, the relationship slowly started to like break down, like it was just becoming more inconsistent and my work schedule wasn't meeting their work schedule. You know how it is. So I really wanted to see what was out there and experiment. I did that through various channels on Grindr, and I was able to, you know, connect and meet up with people and you know, sometimes it's coffee, sometimes it was, you know, a day, sometimes one night stand, um, and then, moving forward, a couple years later I did move to Manchester, the city of, and, um, it was a little bit more accessible in like the community of like gay people um, they have like the gay village there and stuff, and I would go out clubbing and I'd never kissed a guy in a club or public, for even that matter at this point.

Joey: 24:47

So, um, at this point I was like, oh, like you know, I I don't know whether I can do this and I I was like this isn't like you know, and I would go to gay clubs to feel like people were staring at me and like wanted me and attention and stuff, and I could look back, but I would never like signal that, you know, like anything, any interest, because I was scared they would come over and talk to me and I wouldn't know how to like handle the situation in public with my friends there, or you know. So I was. It was kind of like a, like a really psychotic game, if I'm going to be honest, like I feel like it's not really it wasn't very healthy, but I guess we all do it. We all, we all seek attention and affection, right? So, yeah, um, I had I'd made the decision then to grab my best friend Sam, and I think I just like had enough and I really wanted to like just tell her and you know, tell someone at least and it had to be my best friend.

Joey: 25:47

So, um, I remember she was finishing work and I text her and it was really laid out, and she was like what's going on? And I was like I just really need to talk to you? And she was like, okay, I'll come pick you up. So she drives to my house, she picks me up and we're driving around and I haven't said one word and I haven't even brought up like what I want to talk about. Um, she hasn't even asked me because she knows how uncomfortable I am with whatever this, you know, problem is. I want to bring up Um and she just stops the car and we start talking and she's like what's going on? Like you know, like you're scaring me, like is everything okay and I'm like, yeah, like everything's fine, and I feel like I shouldn't have to do this, but I but I want to. I want to verbalize this to you and I need to say it out loud so like I can hear myself say it and you can hear me say it.

Joey: 26:39

But I was like like Sam, I, I, I like men and like I think, I think I like is that okay? And she was like, she was like, oh, joe, she's like like we, of course it's okay, and like we, we knew honey, and I'm like, no, like I'm saying I know, you know, but like, okay, I've, you know, been hooking up with men and seeing men and like on Grindr and da, da, da, da, and I felt like I started crying and I for me, like I really don't cry like very often I was so overwhelmed with emotion and I just felt so like happy to like just get it off my chest and like I felt like relieved to tell someone, um, and she was just like oh, it's okay, like you, like you know, like like I love you, no matter what, and like like we kind of already knew and stuff, like it's, it's no big deal, but like I'm so happy that you're able to like open up and tell me and like actually share, like your experience with me and stuff, and God knows she had a lot of questions. Oh, let me tell you, let me tell you, let me tell you. She's like, does it hurt? I'm like, oh, that, that is, that is. That's not the first question, honey, that's not. We're not asking, I'm not answering that one. Um, so, yeah, I felt relieved and this was, it was such a success from in my mind.

Joey: 28:04

Um, I remember we were driving back in her car and I was like my eyes were like tear filled and like my face was sticky from like this, the tears that have come down my face or whatever. Uh, and we're driving over this little bridge and like going back to my house. It's like two o'clock in the morning, pitch black outside, and we're just driving around in a little ford ka and if you, it was really cute and small and compact, but really small and British, and she just puts on Lady Gaga, born this way, and she's like sing it. Honey, I'm like I love you. It was like the most sensitive situation that you somehow desensitized for me and it was great, honestly, and we still talk about it to this day. It's so funny and that song will come on and she'll be there and she's like you remember and I'm like I remember and she's like this is your song, honey, take it away classic. So that was me coming out to my best friend and that was the first person I came out to.

Joey: 29:05

After that it was like a rolling effect and I came out to a couple of the friends and I messaged you know a, a text message one of my friends and I said we need to talk and she FaceTimed me and we had a conversation there and she was like we knew it's okay. A lot of people that's kind of like their response. They're like we already know, like we know who you are, and like we know you and like we, we, we love you. So like that was.

Joey: 29:39

That was that I think the hardest part for me was just like it almost feels when you, when you're telling, when you're telling someone for the first time, it feels that it's wrong and that's why I think I struggled so hard with it was because it felt that when I was telling people that I was gay, that I, that it was wrong and that it was, it was ill of me or that like why, like the fact that we have to like tell people that we're gay or like come out is like so poor, like why should we? Why do we have to do that? Like it's like, you know, when gay people always say, like oh, straight people don't have to come out to their parents, like they're right, kind of, in a way, like we shouldn't have to have, like you know, the rainbow confetti and rainbow smiles cake because we're like, oh, look, uh, joey's gay, let's bring out the cake. Like there shouldn't be like a party because I'm, because I'm coming out as gay. I mean it's nice, don't get me wrong and it's cute and it's very thoughtful, but like it's a little insensitive. I feel that nice, don't get me wrong, and it's cute and it's very thoughtful, but like it's a little insensitive.

Joey: 30:36

I feel that we don't really need to have this big old party, big old gay party. Because I like the same sex, right. I don't see value in giving same sex, right. I don't see value in giving, having to give this huge speech or, like you know, telling these people that you like love and like making it such a big deal. It should just be like you get to bring home your partner and that's you know. It doesn't matter of like what their gender is Like.

Joey: 31:09

That's the whole point of this is you should be able to bring home whoever you want to bring home and like if you're in a relationship, you're in a relationship. If you're not, you're not. Like, like you know, or if you're experimenting, or whatever you're doing or whatever parting life you are, you should be able to, to feel comfort and that's who you get to be with. It shouldn't really be up to anybody else and we shouldn't have to seek approval for our relationships. If that's where we want to be in that present moment, right, and that's who we want to be with.

Joey: 31:43

But I know everyone's experience is different and I know everyone's situations are also different, so I don't want to talk about you know as a whole. I definitely think that's my opinion and my values and I know that that's not the way it can be for everyone, but I wish it could be. I wish it could be that way. But that's uh, that's my coming out story and that's kind of my two cents there on nature versus nurture and I definitely will like bring these questions up to like guests and stuff and just get their opinions. So in the future I definitely want to discuss that more with people that come on the show and just like kind of get their opinion on. Like you know, did something make you gay or do you feel like you were born gay? But I want to thank you for listening and for tuning in. This is our second episode here. Stay tuned for some more updates, look out for the episodes every wednesday and go be gay. Bye, Bye.